The AirGun Guild

General Category => PCP, C02, and Helium Powered Airguns => Topic started by: oldpro on July 29, 2017, 11:36:38 AM

Title: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on July 29, 2017, 11:36:38 AM
 Balanced valves in PCPs are great things, especially in high powered PCPs.  The basic idea is that some of the high pressure reservoir air is prevented from pressing on the head of valve poppet, and thereby reduces the amount of hammer strike that is needed to knock the valve open. There are already some good balanced valves of many different designs out there, and each has its strengths and its weaknesses.  It is not too hard to build a balanced valve that works, but building one that works well definitely IS difficult.

This is a variation on one of Travis's valves, the Cobra Valve, I believe.  He and I chatted at the Fun Shoot in May in KY, and he scratched out a napkin sketch of a valve with two different o-ringed internal diameters that created varying pressure differentials within the valve.  This reduces the amount of force that is needed to open the valve, so you don't need 2 hands to cock a high powered airgun.  But the dual diameters within the valve also "somewhat" control the closing timing of the valve.  This has a big affect on the air efficiency of the valve.

Shortly after the fun shoot Travis gave me one of his valves, and I replaced the guts of it with this dual diameter poppet.  The valve body and seat and snap ring and retainer  all remained the same, though.

Testing started on a .22 M-Rod and was going so-so, but nothing earth shattering.  I was about to give up but Travis was more optimistic so I tried changing some of the passage diameters within the valve. Bingo! That did it.  The number of variables with 2 internal diameters and 2 internal passages make it difficult to assess the success or failure of each iteration, but after a while trends start showing.

The valve is now pretty close, but it can always be made better.
The test bed is a Marauder Gen 1 rifle with a P-Rod pistol grip and trigger group. The hammer and spring are stock.
It has a 23" .308 barrel, and for testing, the reservoir volume has been reduced to 120ccs.  That makes it easier to measure pressure changes and therefore, air usage and air efficiency.

The first set below, Set number 22, is this new valve shooting 45.8 lead round balls in the .308 barrel.
All shots were taken at 2300 psi, and between each shot the gun was refilled to 2300psi and the hammer spring was adjusted. This was done to measure the power and the air efficiency at various hammer strikes. The valve proved to be fairly powerful and efficient over a full range of power levels.

The new valve produced 97 FPE at 1.26 fpe/cuin air efficiency, down to 50fpe at 1.80 efficiency. The required hammer force was much lower than stock.

The second set, Set number 23, is with a stock valve, with exhaust port opened slightly, and the remainder of the setup identical to set 22.  For comparable hammer strikes, the stock valve produced 59 FPE at 0.76 efficiency, down to 47FPE at 1.03 efficiency.

Even though this isn't an apples to apples comparison,  the new valve is almost twice as efficient with air usage compared to a stock valve. Twice the power for the same amount of air. More to come.

==========
Darn, guess I've been asleep at the wheel. Just realized i need to pay Photobucket $400 a year to be able to display the hundreds of images I've uploaded to their site. I will try and find a way to display the chart that goes with this post tomorrow.  Sorry.
Lloyd
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on July 29, 2017, 11:40:48 AM
 Here are some charts that may help answer questions that will arise from this new valve.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on July 29, 2017, 11:49:56 AM
Nice to see the wraps are FINALLY off this new and exciting ART/Sikes Balanced Valve.... Travis sent me one of the original Cobra valves, and in my high-power builds I was less than excited about the results.... While Scott and Travis were achieving some spectacular efficiency numbers with low to medium powered builds, my rip-snorting guns didn't see the efficiency gains, or the lighter hammer strikes.... For my new 6mm build I hope to do this winter, I therefore planned to use a Cothran valve, and that meant I would have to adjust the power level solely by adjusting the regulator setpoint pressure.... It also meant that off regulation, or off tether, the first shot would be the fastest, with a declining shot string to follow.... I really needed a Balanced Valve that would be tunable with hammer strike, and produce a bell-curve when unregulated.... but there were simply none that were Commercially available, and the designs I had seen, or come up with, were too difficult for me to build with my meager machining skills and equipment....

Without giving away the farm, this new valve uses a stepped poppet with two different diameters, one to seal the seat, and the other to counterbalance the force holding the valve against that seat.... However, it is very different in concept to anything I have seen before, and although I have been privy to the design and testing for a while, I have yet to lay my hands on one (hint, hint).... I have carefully analysed the design, and I can see no pitfalls, either in the concept, or in producing them.... Kudos to Travis for the original idea, and to Lloyd for the development work.... I think this may just lead us to a whole new generation of Balanced Valves that could be made as replacement items for many existing PCPs.... and the concept should have far-reaching implications for future PCP development.... Imagine the ability to use MUCH larger ports, while reducing the cocking force required.... and yet still maintain the ability to tune the valve with hammer strike, in addition to pressure, and get a solid bell-curve.... Not only that, but I think that maybe, just maybe, I can make my own version of it (for my own use), and hopefully thereby add to the body of knowledge surrounding it....

I wish Travis and Lloyd all possible success in furthering this new and exciting valve design, and obtaining Patent protection for it.... Yes, gentlemen, it's THAT good !!!

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Alan on July 29, 2017, 12:07:58 PM
The on-going discussion about balanced valves is proof positive why this airgun site is a head above the others. Yes, some of the data appears here and there, but where else can you get all of the information in one spot? Kudos to all.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on July 29, 2017, 10:03:23 PM
Sounds like pretty exciting stuff.  Bad as I hate to I guess I'll volunteer to be a beta tester :P I'm starting to sound like Monkeydad now ;D

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on July 29, 2017, 11:47:38 PM
Sounds like pretty exciting stuff.  Bad as I hate to I guess I'll volunteer to be a beta tester :P I'm starting to sound like Monkeydad now ;D

Chris

You haven't even scratched the surface. ::)
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Alan on July 30, 2017, 05:20:20 AM
Chris, you have to remember what Joe does for living. I'm convinced the chemicals are doing a number on him, by just looking how long his arms are!
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on July 30, 2017, 10:50:24 AM
Travis, on a Mrod breech will we need to drill out the hole for the transfer port? Or any other mods to take full advantage of the valve's "breathing"?

Alan,
Chemicals???!....I'm beginning to understand now....

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on July 30, 2017, 03:37:56 PM
Chris, you have to remember what Joe does for living. I'm convinced the chemicals are doing a number on him, by just looking how long his arms are!

Long and huh?  Long enough to snatch you up and stick you into a tin of pellets.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 02, 2017, 06:30:41 PM
  As promised I ran a few strings today when I could devote time to it and This is the first string on a WARP .25 with WAR valve(conventional) filled to 3K using a 13ci tank and ninja regulator. I made NO attempt to make any adjustments just put gun together set conventional spring set up in (no TSS/SSG) and locked down adjuster for comparison to ART/Sikes valve. Ran string and made note where it came off regulator(reg at 2K). Came off Regulator at shot #26
 
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Message Body
Created: 08/02/17 01:19 PM
Description: Warp .25
Notes 1: 3k run reg at 2k
Notes 2: 15" barrel NO Tuning
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 91 °F
BP: 29.97 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
35    760      43.61    25.84
34    750      42.47    25.50
33    744      41.80    25.30
32    741      41.46    25.19
31    729      40.13    24.79
30    737      41.01    25.06
29    731      40.35    24.85
28    747      42.13    25.40
27    739      41.24    25.13
26    736      40.90    25.02
25    728      40.02    24.75
24    730      40.24    24.82
23    730      40.24    24.82
22    729      40.13    24.79
21    729      40.13    24.79
20    730      40.24    24.82
19    732      40.46    24.89
18    727      39.91    24.72
17    732      40.46    24.89
16    721      39.25    24.51
15    724      39.58    24.62
14    721      39.25    24.51
13    721      39.25    24.51
12    725      39.69    24.65
11    722      39.36    24.55
10    725      39.69    24.65
9    721      39.25    24.51
8    725      39.69    24.65
7    724      39.58    24.62
6    718      38.93    24.41
5    711      38.17    24.17
4    716      38.71    24.34
3    712      38.28    24.21
2    713      38.39    24.24
1    680      34.92    23.12
Average: 727.4 FPS
SD: 13.5 FPS
Min: 680 FPS
Max: 760 FPS
Spread: 80 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 727 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00


Ok now second string the ONLY change is replacing conventional valve with ART/Sikes valve and surprising to me it came off reg at exact shot count as above shot #26
 
Created: 08/02/17 03:42 PM
Description: Warp 25
Notes 1: 3k run 13ci reg at 2K
Notes 2: 15" barrel NO tuning
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 95 °F
BP: 29.96 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
35    793      47.48    26.96
34    790      47.12    26.86
33    798      48.08    27.13
32    794      47.60    27.00
31    801      48.45    27.23
30    802      48.57    27.27
29    801      48.45    27.23
28    793      47.48    26.96
27    785      46.53    26.69
26    782      46.18    26.59
25    783      46.29    26.62
24    793      47.48    26.96
23    785      46.53    26.69
22    785      46.53    26.69
21    783      46.29    26.62
20    782      46.18    26.59
19    790      47.12    26.86
18    782      46.18    26.59
17    784      46.41    26.66
16    785      46.53    26.69
15    784      46.41    26.66
14    790      47.12    26.86
13    788      46.89    26.79
12    787      46.77    26.76
11    789      47.01    26.83
10    786      46.65    26.72
9    783      46.29    26.62
8    781      46.06    26.55
7    788      46.89    26.79
6    777      45.59    26.42
5    775      45.35    26.35
4    771      44.89    26.21
3    774      45.24    26.32
2    782      46.18    26.59
1    775      45.35    26.35
Average: 786.3 FPS
SD: 7.6 FPS
Min: 771 FPS
Max: 802 FPS
Spread: 31 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 786 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00


 Then I filled gun again still with ART/Sikes valve and this time I decreased the spring 1 turn took three shots and decreased it 1/2 shot then took three more and decreased it again 1/2 turn and again and again then last three I turned it in 4.5 turns.

Created: 08/02/17 05:42 PM
Description: warp .25
Notes 1: 15" barrel Reg at 2K
Notes 2: adjusted run
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 92 °F
BP: 29.93 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
18    840      53.28    28.56
17    843      53.66    28.66
16    840      53.28    28.56
15    560      23.68    19.04
14    552      23.01    18.77
13    555      23.26    18.87
12    601      27.27    20.43
11    595      26.73    20.23
10    593      26.55    20.16
9    636      30.54    21.62
8    634      30.35    21.56
7    627      29.68    21.32
6    654      32.30    22.24
5    658      32.69    22.37
4    657      32.59    22.34
3    703      37.32    23.90
2    702      37.21    23.87
1    702      37.21    23.87
Average: 664.0 FPS
SD: 94.1 FPS
Min: 552 FPS
Max: 843 FPS
Spread: 291 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 664 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 02, 2017, 08:00:49 PM
If you looked at the above chart and your not excited you should be lol
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on August 02, 2017, 08:55:48 PM
Just comparing apples to apples here.

Conventional valve:
39.9 fpe avg
1.16 fpe/ci eff.

ART/Sikes valve
46.6 fpe avg
1.35 eff.

That's a 17% increase in power and 16% in efficiency. Yep, I'm excited  :) Thanks for sharing and keeping us updated.

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 02, 2017, 09:21:01 PM
 Actually its close to 18% but at a higher FPE/FPS so the actual percentage is much higher. The gain is 18% and 60FPS at the same pressure range and shot count , Massive!!!
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 02, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Yep, that about sums it up.... but take a look at one thing.... With the stock valve, the gun is operating way down on the downslope for a regulated PCP.... You can tell that by how far the velocity climbs below the setpoint.... By shot 35, it has climbed to 760 fps (~30 fps) and looks like it is still climbing.... This indicates that if the hammer strike was increased, the velocity of the entire string would increase, giving more power.... It is very likely that the air use would increase as well, of course.... The gun is operating a long ways below the velocity plateau....

With the ART/Sikes valve, because it is much easier to open, the same hammer strike opens the valve further and for longer, which increases the velocity and energy.... The gun is operating closer to the knee of the curve, which you can see because the blip in velocity after the setpoint isn't as great, and peaks at only shot #30 (instead of still increasing to or past #35).... This explains the increase in velocity and FPE, it is occurring from less hammer energy being wasted in opening the valve, so more is available to create useful lift and dwell.... which means more power.... The gun is operating closer to the velocity plateau....

This leaves us with the increased efficiency of the ART/Sikes valve to ponder.... How can it create more power on the same amount of air?.... The first question that comes to mind for me is.... how do the port sizes (the ability of the two valves to flow air) compare?.... I would like to know what the velocity is at the plateau (ie the maximum velocity at that pressure) for both valves, to properly assess where in their operating ranges the two tunes are.... Please don't misunderstand me, this isn't intended as a criticism.... I just want to understand more about the parameters of this great new valve.... For this to be an apples to apples comparison, the two valve need to have identical port sizes, IMO.... and maybe they do?....

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 02, 2017, 10:07:03 PM
 The two valves are identical in every way except the balanced poppet. TP .250 and valve throat .280 in both valve. Bob both valves are identical to the valve I sent you except for the balanced valve poppet design of the ART/Sikes valve. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 02, 2017, 10:14:55 PM
Yep, sure does.... Any idea what the plateau (maximum) velocities are with the two valves at 2Ksi, and how much difference the hammer strike to achieve that?.... It would seem reasonable that if the ports are the same, the max. velocity would be as well.... but of course the efficiency may not be....

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the operating conditions, relative to the plateau, knee, and downslope, with the tunes used.... The fact you are getting higher efficiency at higher power just blows me away....  8)

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on August 03, 2017, 03:07:37 AM
I think that another interesting test would be to put the conventional valve back in, then crank up the hammer spring until you reach the same velocity as the ART/Sikes valve. Keep the set point the same of course, then we would get an idea of what the air consumption would be at equal power levels. Just saying...... :)  And of course,  MAXIUMUM  POWER (said in a deep, echoing, slightly digitized voice) ;D for each valve.

Chris

Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 03, 2017, 08:43:56 AM
I agree, Chris.... the more data the better....

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Motorhead on August 03, 2017, 09:57:50 AM
Not sure this thread being the right place ... but having been working with Travis some on his "Cobra" variation valve tech I have some loose data to share.

Had designed and retrofitted the valve on the RAW TM-1000 FT gun a few months ago with "Cobra" style parts and been very happy with the snappier shot cycle and air savings found. 
In owning this gun a few years now have done extensive R&D in making it a better gun than delivered, been successful in this quest by applying SSG device, Lightened hammer, Different port sizing & such mods many have been fooling with of late.

Prior to "Cobra" mods the REGULATION pressure required to get a solid 19 ft lbs in a tight Sub 10 fps ES required @ 125/130 BAR pressure within valve.
Hammer weight able to be kept light, but heavier hammer spring tension required to fire the hammer VERY FAST at the poppet ... actually this worked excellent ! giving a very fast lock time and very little cyclic vibration.
* Enter the "COBRA" mod .... For these past few months been shooting the RAW set up as above operating at 128BAR without issue but a bit of reg creep noted and a shift in velocity in 1st shot of after an hour of more of non use.   ??? ??? ???  LIGHT BULB MOMENT that had me do a test that frankly had never been done while doing the "Cobra" R&D with Travis.

Knowing Regulator being set at 128 bar bled off pressure in the guns 400cc bottle to @ 80 bar, hooked up my Test Grade pressure gauge to my filler from HPA tank and started doing CHRONY shots as pressure was raised in 10 bar increments.
** This keeping the hammer & spring tension fixed at the power level gun had been at with 128 bar JSB 13.6 grain .20 cal @ 810 fps
At @ 80 bar velocity was mid 600's, at 90 bar low 800's and at 100bar 860's !!! WHAT THE HECK  :o :o
As we went past 100 bar to 110 to 120 then 130 the velocity fell back down settling out at @ 810 fps once regulator set point was active.

BOY WAS THIS FUBBARED ... so telling that as set up with the "Cobra" tech parts we were no longer operating near the bell curve optimal set pressure for the hammer weight and strike energy ... WHOA way the heck off !!!

So ... pulled the regulator placing it into the test / set fixture reducing output to a touch over 100 bar, installed back into rifle then confirming velocity of @ 860 fps.
Ok that will allow me to back off on hammer spring energy and being done ... settled back in at @ 810 fps velocity.
* Gun now cocks far easier, still has IMO wicked fast lock time yet now is so stable in velocity were seeing typically +/- 4 fps or less ES figures & shows virtually no set point creep velocity swings cold shot or after sitting as it had done previous.

We know that when a regulated gun is tuned near the knee that slightly lower of higher pressure within plenum has the lest effect on velocity swings  :)
Where I'm going here needing to be long winded in explanation is the EFFECT the "Cobra" valve mods had on the valves closing cycle and the major shift it made in required pressure to operate efficiently & effectively.

It is of MY OPINION that in a conventional valve, to get efficiency we need the higher pressure so the valve is able to be cracked yet because of the high pressure is willing to close fast too.  We want that SNAP shot cycle. 
Using lower pressure can work, but typically in my experience comes at the expense of excessive valve dwell and more air used per shot.

* The "Cobra" mod valve parts which vastly accelerate the valves closing speed is felt the major contributor to these results found above ... It did not take 128 bar to make the power required, only 100 bar. Because of the accelerated closing cycle / reduced dwell we fell into a tune parameter never experienced or documented best i know before.


Hope others find some interest in this data ...
Scott
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 03, 2017, 11:00:30 AM
  The Dwell of a valve consists of two parts 1.Lift time to max height 2. closing time to seated. What this valve does better than other valves and why its so efficient is #2 its clamping rate or closing time is far superior so If we build a high breathing valve with large lift we can control that with a super fast clamping rate. What this means is high power with the least amount of dwell time so less waisted air and a quieter report. There are parts of the technology we still dont all agree on how it works(Bob/me/Lloyd and Scott) because we frankly dont know yet how it works its sort of a mini mystery but we do know how to adjust the mystery area to get what we need. As I get closer to production I hope I have a full understanding of this simple but mysterious valves inner workings.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 03, 2017, 01:55:14 PM
 Ran unregulated string and added 1/4 turn to help ramp it up to open at higher pressure. It was filled to 3k and for comparison it was at 2k (previous reg set point) at shot 27. No fine tuning what so ever just raw data. As you can see it will make a bell curve and if Hammer strike and fill pressures were adjusted you would have most excellent results.

Created: 08/03/17 01:03 PM
Description: Warp .25
Notes 1: 3k to 1400psi 1/4 turn in on HD
Notes 2: 15" barrel unregulated
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 90 °F
BP: 30.02 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
45    708      37.85    24.07   
44    726      39.80    24.68   
43    735      40.79    24.99   
42    752      42.70    25.57   
41    759      43.50    25.81   
40    769      44.65    26.15   
39    781      46.06    26.55   
38    791      47.24    26.89   
37    799      48.20    27.17   
36    806      49.05    27.40   
35    816      50.28    27.74   
34    822      51.02    27.95   
33    827      51.64    28.12   
32    838      53.03    28.49   
31    836      52.77    28.42   
30    841      53.41    28.59   
29    848      54.30    28.83   
28    859      55.72    29.21   
27    864      56.37    29.38   
26    868      56.89    29.51   
25    867      56.76    29.48   
24    864      56.37    29.38   
23    864      56.37    29.38   
22    864      56.37    29.38   
21    859      55.72    29.21   
20    856      55.33    29.10   
19    853      54.94    29.00   
18    841      53.41    28.59   
17    837      52.90    28.46   
16    826      51.52    28.08   
15    823      51.14    27.98   
14    813      49.91    27.64   
13    800      48.33    27.20   
12    805      48.93    27.37   
11    785      46.53    26.69   
10    770      44.77    26.18   
9     773      45.12    26.28   
8     768      44.54    26.11   
7     753      42.81    25.60   
6     751      42.59    25.53   
5     750      42.47    25.50   
4     738      41.13    25.09   
3     727      39.91    24.72   
2     730      40.24    24.82   
1     717      38.82    24.38   
Average: 801.8 FPS
SD: 49.0 FPS
Min: 708 FPS
Max: 868 FPS
Spread: 160 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 802 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 03, 2017, 01:55:38 PM
 Ok power tune from 3K fill same gun warp .25 15" barrel ART/Sikes valve. This was 3 turns in from previous test. There is 3 more turns till spring bind and if I fill to 3200 I can easy hit 70fpe from this little 15" barrel

Created: 08/03/17 01:41 PM
Description: 3k to 2500
Notes 1: unregulated max power string
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 91 °F
BP: 30.02 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
12    890      59.81    30.26   
11    895      60.48    30.43   
10    903      61.57    30.70   
9     910      62.53    30.94   
8     915      63.22    31.11   
7     919      63.77    31.25   
6     929      65.17    31.59   
5     928      65.03    31.55   
4     927      64.89    31.52   
3     916      63.36    31.14   
2     926      64.75    31.48   
1     936      66.15    31.82   
Average: 916.2 FPS
SD: 14.4 FPS
Min: 890 FPS
Max: 936 FPS
Spread: 46 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 916 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on August 03, 2017, 05:09:40 PM
Thanks Travis for the data, keep it coming. This valve is amazing. Looks like you've found a nice balance (pun intended) between adjustability and the ease of balanced valves. I tip my hat to ya sir.

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: bnowlin on August 03, 2017, 06:46:07 PM
Ok power tune from 3K fill same gun warp .25 15" barrel ART/Sikes valve. This was 3 turns in from previous test. There is 3 more turns till spring bind and if I fill to 3200 I can easy hit 70fpe from this little 15" barrel

Created: 08/03/17 01:41 PM
Description: 3k to 2500
Notes 1: unregulated max power string
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 91 °F
BP: 30.02 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
12    890      59.81    30.26   
11    895      60.48    30.43   
10    903      61.57    30.70   
9     910      62.53    30.94   
8     915      63.22    31.11   
7     919      63.77    31.25   
6     929      65.17    31.59   
5     928      65.03    31.55   
4     927      64.89    31.52   
3     916      63.36    31.14   
2     926      64.75    31.48   
1     936      66.15    31.82   
Average: 916.2 FPS
SD: 14.4 FPS
Min: 890 FPS
Max: 936 FPS
Spread: 46 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 916 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

Travis how is that compared to a 23 inch barrel and a Cobra vs the new one
Bobn
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 03, 2017, 07:23:32 PM
65 FPE from a 15" barrel is pretty stout, IMO....

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 03, 2017, 08:40:23 PM
The barrel port is only .185 and the short barrel are not conducive to making big power but the valve is making 10fpe more power than original valve at same power and still more efficient...No lose situation.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Alan on August 04, 2017, 03:06:02 AM
Okay! Okay! My appetite is whetted! So when can I buy one? And how much?
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 04, 2017, 12:10:29 PM
   Pulling gun apart today and sending off drawings and valve to Matt but I did have time to run a string with light hammer and Regulator

Created: 08/04/17 11:39 AM
Description: Warp .25
Notes 1: ART/Sikes 15" barrel
Notes 2: 2900/2000 13ci tank
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 25.40
Temp: 79 °F
BP: 30.04 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
27    897      45.39    22.78   
26    899      45.59    22.83   
25    900      45.69    22.86   
24    905      46.20    22.99   
23    898      45.49    22.81   
22    899      45.59    22.83   
21    901      45.79    22.89   
20    908      46.51    23.06   
19    900      45.69    22.86   
18    901      45.79    22.89   
17    900      45.69    22.86   
16    905      46.20    22.99   
15    898      45.49    22.81   
14    905      46.20    22.99   
13    901      45.79    22.89   
12    904      46.10    22.96   
11    904      46.10    22.96   
10    904      46.10    22.96   
9     905      46.20    22.99   
8     902      45.89    22.91   
7     908      46.51    23.06   
6     900      45.69    22.86   
5     908      46.51    23.06   
4     907      46.40    23.04   
3     905      46.20    22.99   
2     903      46.00    22.94   
1     899      45.59    22.83   
Average: 902.4 FPS
SD: 3.3 FPS
Min: 897 FPS
Max: 908 FPS
Spread: 11 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 903 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 04, 2017, 12:43:29 PM
Is it really a 16 CI tank (262 cc)?.... Pressure drop was 900 psi (62 bar) x 16 = 993 CI total.... 27 shots at 45.9 FPE avg. = 1240 FPE total.... That works out to 1.25 FPE/CI.... Nice tight string at 11 fps ES....

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 04, 2017, 12:54:22 PM
 Sorry 13ci ninja tank ,good catch Bob I fixed post.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Bigredhunter00 on August 04, 2017, 01:11:35 PM
Hanging out with joe i get to see first hand what the chemicals are doing to him.  Its not pretty at all.  Sorry Joe but i gotta inform them.  His arms are not the only issue.  I thinks hes developing a tumor in his brain the shape of a pellet.  I keep telling him to go see a doc but we know how joe is.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 04, 2017, 03:23:07 PM
OK, with the tank being 13 CI, that works out to 1.54 FPE/CI.... pretty exceptional for 25gr. pellets at 46 FPE in only a 15" barrel, IMO....  8)

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on August 04, 2017, 05:00:39 PM
Hey Bob, taking into consideration the .187 porting and the 15" barrel, along with the 2k psi set point on the reg. Travis nailed the 50%  of the theoretical efficiency didn't he? 

I'll try to show my work even though I usually make a fool of myself doing so ::)

.25 (bore diameter) x .187 (barrel port diameter) x pi /4=.0368 x 15 (barrel length) /12=.046 x 2,000 (reg. pressure)=92fpe

Travis's shot string shows an avg. of 903 fps which is exactly 46 fpe, being right at half of 92. I know that that has been done before, but usually is a dump shot fashion. Travis did it with the ART/Sikes valve (how does ARTSI sound?) with an absolutely stunning efficiency. 
Man I'm wanting one of these valves :D

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 04, 2017, 06:04:41 PM
Well technically my 50% of maximum rule of thumb is for pellets that are travelling 950 fps (2 FPE / gr.).... but yeah, at 903 it's close enough that congratulations are in order.... My database is pretty much all based on guns of 24" barrel length and over.... It is entirely possible that shorter barrels find it easier to reach, or even exceed that 50% level.... Certainly heavy bullets/pellets can exceed the 50%, we see that a lot (eg. 34 gr. pellets in .25 cal only need to be going 780 fps to hit 46 FPE instead of 910).... No question, however, that hitting the 50% mark with an efficiency of over 1.5 FPE/CI is something I have NOT seen before....  :o

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 24, 2017, 06:28:33 PM
 I was able to get the final prototype installed and tested in a 22 Mrod today and even though I knew it was going to be good I didnt know how good until today. Ill post strings etc. tomorrowbut for now the WOW factor is a 10++++
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: bnowlin on August 24, 2017, 06:41:23 PM
22 or 25 Travis?
Bobn
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 24, 2017, 06:49:46 PM
 both
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on August 24, 2017, 07:48:20 PM
Can't wait  :D

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 24, 2017, 09:54:47 PM
 A little eye candy for now
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 25, 2017, 05:50:03 PM
 Ok I opened up the TO to .187 and still with stock spring ran the following string. Next I will put in a 10lb spring top to 3k and shoot 55 grain hollow point slugs
Created: 08/25/17 03:56 PM
Description: Mrod
Notes 1: stock gun SS valve
Notes 2: .187 port  2900-1500
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 85 °F
BP: 29.93 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
30    783      46.29    26.62   
29    800      48.33    27.20   
28    819      50.65    27.85   
27    836      52.77    28.42   
26    851      54.68    28.93   
25    875      57.81    29.75   
24    877      58.08    29.82   
23    888      59.54    30.19   
22    896      60.62    30.46   
21    902      61.43    30.67   
20    918      63.63    31.21   
19    922      64.19    31.35   
18    930      65.31    31.62   
17    945      67.43    32.13   
16    939      66.58    31.93   
15    941      66.86    31.99   
14    932      65.59    31.69   
13    924      64.47    31.42   
12    913      62.94    31.04   
11    891      59.94    30.29   
10    872      57.42    29.65   
9     870      57.15    29.58   
8     856      55.33    29.10   
7     839      53.15    28.53   
6     832      52.27    28.29   
5     821      50.90    27.91   
4     807      49.17    27.44   
3     790      47.12    26.86   
2     780      45.94    26.52   
1     ERROR 10
Average: 870.7 FPS
SD: 51.8 FPS
Min: 780 FPS
Max: 945 FPS
Spread: 165 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 871 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 25, 2017, 05:50:42 PM
 Ok installed 10lb spring and shot 55 grain hollow points
Created: 08/25/17 04:28 PM
Description: Stock Mrod 25
Notes 1: SS valve
Notes 2: 3k to 1750
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 55.00
Temp: 85 °F
BP: 29.92 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
19    766      71.67    42.13   
18    771      72.61    42.40   
17    783      74.89    43.06   
16    792      76.62    43.56   
15    804      78.96    44.22   
14    824      82.93    45.32   
13    824      82.93    45.32   
12    837      85.57    46.03   
11    836      85.37    45.98   
10    842      86.60    46.31   
9     846      87.42    46.53   
8     846      87.42    46.53   
7     846      87.42    46.53   
6     826      83.34    45.43   
5     823      82.73    45.26   
4     797      77.59    43.83   
3     789      76.04    43.40   
2     759      70.37    41.74   
1     765      71.48    42.08   
Average: 809.3 FPS
SD: 30.6 FPS
Min: 759 FPS
Max: 846 FPS
Spread: 87 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 809 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 25, 2017, 05:51:18 PM
 Didn't have enough 55 grains to run another string so shot some 74 grain hollow points using a 12lb spring
Created: 08/25/17 04:52 PM
Description: stock Mrod 25
Notes 1: 3100-2k
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 74.00
Temp: 85 °F
BP: 29.92 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
15    686      77.34    50.76   
14    702      80.99    51.95   
13    700      80.53    51.80   
12    712      83.31    52.69   
11    733      88.30    54.24   
10    731      87.82    54.09   
9     745      91.21    55.13   
8     756      93.93    55.94   
7     756      93.93    55.94   
6     735      88.78    54.39   
5     743      90.72    54.98   
4     717      84.49    53.06   
3     717      84.49    53.06   
2     704      81.45    52.10   
1     692      78.70    51.21   
Average: 721.9 FPS
SD: 22.7 FPS
Min: 686 FPS
Max: 756 FPS
Spread: 70 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 722 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on August 25, 2017, 06:42:07 PM
WOW!! That thing will move the air. Amazing how versatile the valve is. Thanks for all the time you take to post this. Looking forward to getting my hands on one of those. Exciting time to be into airguns, watching things just like this unfold.

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 26, 2017, 01:03:29 PM
  So I vented the poppet thimble and now I can tune to a declining string if wanted. This concludes the non regulated testing now I'll reg it and work on that.
Created: 08/26/17 12:19 PM
Description: Mrod 25
Notes 1: 3K to 2K
Notes 2: SS valve
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: N/A °F
BP: N/A inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
13    886      59.27    30.12   
12    899      61.03    30.57   
11    914      63.08    31.08   
10    931      65.45    31.65   
9     943      67.15    32.06   
8     949      68.00    32.27   
7     970      71.05    32.98   
6     978      72.22    33.25   
5     980      72.52    33.32   
4     988      73.71    33.59   
3     1009     76.87    34.31   
2     1014     77.64    34.48   
1     1022     78.87    34.75   
Average: 960.2 FPS
SD: 44.1 FPS
Min: 886 FPS
Max: 1022 FPS
Spread: 136 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 960 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 26, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
 Backed off 3 turns on hammer spring and ran this tune. This valve is truly versatile and very user friendly
 Created: 08/26/17 12:37 PM
Description: Mrod 25
Notes 1: SS valve
Notes 2: 3k to 2200psi
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 52.00
Temp: 85 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
14    792      72.44    41.18   
13    806      75.02    41.91   
12    812      76.14    42.22   
11    822      78.03    42.74   
10    824      78.41    42.85   
9     834      80.33    43.37   
8     838      81.10    43.58   
7     842      81.87    43.78   
6     841      81.68    43.73   
5     840      81.48    43.68   
4     842      81.87    43.78   
3     831      79.75    43.21   
2     824      78.41    42.85   
1     808      75.39    42.02   
Average: 825.4 FPS
SD: 15.8 FPS
Min: 792 FPS
Max: 842 FPS
Spread: 50 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 825 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 26, 2017, 03:43:22 PM
 Here's a run I just did with 34 grain JSB pellets. I need to put a striker on my hammer to flatten out string or preferably run a TSS but this is at least a good base to start with.
Created: 08/26/17 02:46 PM
Description: 24 Mrod
Notes 1:
Notes 2: 2950-1650
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 88 °F
BP: 30.08 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
21    880      58.47    29.92   
20    887      59.41    30.16   
19    904      61.71    30.74   
18    914      63.08    31.08   
17    921      64.05    31.31   
16    928      65.03    31.55   
15    933      65.73    31.72   
14    938      66.44    31.89   
13    952      68.43    32.37   
12    955      68.87    32.47   
11    964      70.17    32.78   
10    960      69.59    32.64   
9     967      70.61    32.88   
8     960      69.59    32.64   
7     956      69.01    32.50   
6     941      66.86    31.99   
5     910      62.53    30.94   
4     933      65.73    31.72   
3     913      62.94    31.04   
2     900      61.16    30.60   
1     888      59.54    30.19   
Average: 928.8 FPS
SD: 27.4 FPS
Min: 880 FPS
Max: 967 FPS
Spread: 87 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 929 FPS
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 27, 2017, 11:32:48 AM
Here's a regged string at a lower power tune with and efficiency of 1.62 Starting pressure 3k and fell off reg on shot 27 reg set at 2K
 Created: 08/27/17 10:51 AM
Description:
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 34.00
Temp: 79 °F
BP: 30.14 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
28    825      51.39    28.05   
27    831      52.14    28.25   
26    836      52.77    28.42   
25    836      52.77    28.42   
24    831      52.14    28.25   
23    834      52.52    28.36   
22    836      52.77    28.42   
21    826      51.52    28.08   
20    829      51.89    28.19   
19    831      52.14    28.25   
18    827      51.64    28.12   
17    834      52.52    28.36   
16    833      52.39    28.32   
15    827      51.64    28.12   
14    828      51.77    28.15   
13    822      51.02    27.95   
12    823      51.14    27.98   
11    827      51.64    28.12   
10    833      52.39    28.32   
9     822      51.02    27.95   
8     819      50.65    27.85   
7     831      52.14    28.25   
6     828      51.77    28.15   
5     830      52.02    28.22   
4     825      51.39    28.05   
3     827      51.64    28.12   
2     826      51.52    28.08   
1     830      52.02    28.22   
Average: 828.8 FPS
SD: 4.5 FPS
Min: 819 FPS
Max: 836 FPS
Spread: 17 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 829 FPS
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rrdstarr on August 29, 2017, 07:17:48 PM
late to the party as usual, so what does this valve look like?
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on August 29, 2017, 07:24:50 PM
Details are awaiting patent before release, I believe.... It's a balanced valve design I have never seen before.... and it's working extremely well....

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on August 31, 2017, 10:51:52 PM
It is working well and actually a little better than I predicted
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on September 05, 2017, 04:13:06 PM
Will be working on some tunes out of a stock Gen1 Mrod hopefully by this weekend for you all to see.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Christopher on September 06, 2017, 02:43:56 AM
Dairyboy, that's great!!!! Looking forward to what you can do with the valve.

Chris
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on September 06, 2017, 12:20:19 PM
My buddy Peter sent his .25 slug gun to me it is a Marauder and I installed the SS valve with .210 porting and a light weight hammer(45g) and 12lb hammer spring with stock end cap and filled to 3k and shot down to 1800psi. The light weight hammer wasn't a good fit for this application and a stock weight hammer most likely would have made the curve come on stronger from the get go but it gave me a good base for Peter who wants to tune it himself. It's running a stock length barrel "20. Have fun Peter and share your tune when you get it done buddy. The slugs were a lose fit for the bore also but peter will sort all that out they were what I had on hand.
Created: 09/06/17 11:13 AM
Description: peters .25 slug
Notes 1: 20" slug barrel
Notes 2: 3k-1800
Distance to Chrono(FT): 1.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 51.50
Temp: 78 °F
BP: 30.02 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS   FT-LBS       PF
21    736      61.96    37.90   
20    760      66.06    39.14   
19    768      67.46    39.55   
18    780      69.58    40.17   
17    788      71.02    40.58   
16    813      75.60    41.87   
15    828      78.41    42.64   
14    832      79.17    42.85   
13    848      82.25    43.67   
12    854      83.41    43.98   
11    859      84.39    44.24   
10    842      81.09    43.36   
9     845      81.67    43.52   
8     849      82.44    43.72   
7     822      77.28    42.33   
6     809      74.85    41.66   
5     780      69.58    40.17   
4     774      68.52    39.86   
3     770      67.81    39.65   
2     777      69.05    40.02   
1     733      61.45    37.75   
Average: 803.2 FPS
SD: 39.7 FPS
Min: 733 FPS
Max: 859 FPS
Spread: 126 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 803 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: bnowlin on September 08, 2017, 05:37:34 PM
Well, I sent my Mrod 25 Gen 1 out to Travis a couple of moths ago to have him work his magic on and play with his new A/S valve.  This the Mrod that already had everything he and Jim ever made except the LDC.  Also had the LW .630 Polygon barrel 24 in that Jim machined for me last year sometime.  It was already a sweet shooter but what the heck.  Why not just keep going heck what's money.  To make a long story short he took the TSS out used a single spring, took out the WAR valve put in the new ART/SIKES valve , removed the WAR depinger,  installed the HUMA regulator cleaned and tuned it up and MAN what a gun.  Anyway got it back today and the Post Office had screwed up my stock and twisted the shroud around way off.  I got it straight again and went out to shoot it.  I cocked it but I thought something was wrong because I didn't think it cocked so I pulled the handle back again no feel by golly it was already cocked.  so I aimed in the general direction of a big pine tree about 50 yds away (no scope yet) and shot all I heard was a click WHACK.  Man what a quiet gun.  I started playing with the cocking and found I could cock it with my pinkie finger.  Why I have never seen such light cocking gun!!  I have not chronied it yet but I loaded up to 3200 and see the HUMA is on 1500.  I shot 51 rounds of JSB 25.4s before it dropped the gauge just a little.  Shot 2 more just to make sure.  I will try to chrony tomorrow but I believe it will be above 860.  This is by far the best I've seen on this gun and I have tried 3 different valve and everything else it's a keeper now.
Bobn
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on September 09, 2017, 07:50:01 AM
That's awesome Bob! I should have my SS valve today and am looking forward to running it through it's paces tomorrow! Will be testing unregulated in my Gen1 .22 and then regulated in my Gen2 .22.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on September 11, 2017, 07:43:03 PM
Here's some basic tunes I haven't done any fine tuning. Everything is stock except valve. .140 ports which is stock on this Gen1 .22. Can you say QUIET? I am very impressed with this valve. If you play with port sizes the unregulated you can get some huge power! Regulated I can't even imagine how many shots I can get. I will be using this valve in my Gen2 .22 and as it will be regulated so I will have results with that as well. What I'm impressed with is low pressure power. Also a SSG or TSS isn't even necessary with this valve. No hammer bounce at all.

Created: 09-11-2017 05:18:32 PM
Description: Gen1 .22 Mrod
Notes 1: HS and HT full CCW
Notes 2: 3000-600psi
Distance to Chrono (FT): 2.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 14.300
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 90 °F
BP: 29.99 inHG
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
87    704        15.74      10.07     
86    728        16.83      10.41     
85    744        17.58      10.64     
84    764        18.54      10.93     
83    787        19.67      11.25     
82    806        20.63      11.53     
81    825        21.62      11.80     
80    845        22.68      12.08     
79    859        23.43      12.28     
78    877        24.43      12.54     
77    879        24.54      12.57     
76    885        24.87      12.66     
75    896        25.50      12.81     
74    902        25.84      12.90     
73    911        26.36      13.03     
72    920        26.88      13.16     
71    928        27.35      13.27     
70    937        27.88      13.40     
69    944        28.30      13.50     
68    952        28.78      13.61     
67    962        29.39      13.76     
66    955        28.96      13.66     
65    962        29.39      13.76     
64    974        30.13      13.93     
63    973        30.07      13.91     
62    975        30.19      13.94     
61    982        30.62      14.04     
60    987        30.94      14.11     
59    997        31.57      14.26     
58    1002       31.89      14.33     
57    995        31.44      14.23     
56    995        31.44      14.23     
55    988        31.00      14.13     
54    984        30.75      14.07     
53    985        30.81      14.09     
52    980        30.50      14.01     
51    976        30.25      13.96     
50    969        29.82      13.86     
49    964        29.51      13.79     
48    955        28.96      13.66     
47    950        28.66      13.59     
46    942        28.18      13.47     
45    940        28.06      13.44     
44    932        27.59      13.33     
43    902        25.84      12.90     
42    921        26.94      13.17     
41    906        26.07      12.96     
40    896        25.50      12.81     
39    892        25.27      12.76     
38    884        24.82      12.64     
37    877        24.43      12.54     
36    866        23.82      12.38     
35    867        23.87      12.40     
34    867        23.87      12.40     
33    853        23.11      12.20     
32    836        22.20      11.95     
31    832        21.98      11.90     
30    829        21.83      11.85     
29    826        21.67      11.81     
28    837        22.25      11.97     
27    825        21.62      11.80     
26    813        20.99      11.63     
25    803        20.48      11.48     
24    810        20.84      11.58     
23    796        20.12      11.38     
22    792        19.92      11.33     
21    788        19.72      11.27     
20    784        19.52      11.21     
19    786        19.62      11.24     
18    785        19.57      11.23     
17    776        19.12      11.10     
16    770        18.83      11.01     
15    775        19.07      11.08     
14    762        18.44      10.90     
13    756        18.15      10.81     
12    749        17.82      10.71     
11    741        17.44      10.60     
10    757        18.20      10.83     
9     747        17.72      10.68     
8     741        17.44      10.60     
7     745        17.63      10.65     
6     737        17.25      10.54     
5     728        16.83      10.41     
4     733        17.06      10.48     
3     724        16.65      10.35     
2     715        16.24      10.22     
1     709        15.96      10.14     
Average: 861.55
StdDev: 90.55
Min: 704
Max: 1002
Spread: 298
True MV: 861.75
Shots/sec: 0.25
Group Size (IN): 0.00

Created: 09-11-2017 05:48:20 PM
Description: Gen1 .22 Mrod
Notes 1: 3000-1100psi
Notes 2: 3 turns CW
Distance to Chrono (FT): 2.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 18.130
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 89 °F
BP: 29.99 inHG
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
53    818        26.94      14.83     
52    833        27.94      15.10     
51    846        28.82      15.34     
50    842        28.55      15.27     
49    853        29.30      15.46     
48    868        30.34      15.74     
47    874        30.76      15.85     
46    884        31.46      16.03     
45    894        32.18      16.21     
44    907        33.12      16.44     
43    914        33.64      16.57     
42    918        33.93      16.64     
41    929        34.75      16.84     
40    924        34.38      16.75     
39    934        35.12      16.93     
38    935        35.20      16.95     
37    941        35.65      17.06     
36    947        36.11      17.17     
35    954        36.64      17.30     
34    956        36.80      17.33     
33    958        36.95      17.37     
32    965        37.49      17.50     
31    964        37.42      17.48     
30    968        37.73      17.55     
29    968        37.73      17.55     
28    971        37.96      17.60     
27    966        37.57      17.51     
26    976        38.35      17.69     
25    964        37.42      17.48     
24    964        37.42      17.48     
23    963        37.34      17.46     
22    961        37.18      17.42     
21    949        36.26      17.21     
20    947        36.11      17.17     
19    956        36.80      17.33     
18    944        35.88      17.11     
17    939        35.50      17.02     
16    923        34.30      16.73     
15    922        34.23      16.72     
14    916        33.78      16.61     
13    899        32.54      16.30     
12    905        32.98      16.41     
11    868        30.34      15.74     
10    898        32.47      16.28     
9     878        31.04      15.92     
8     861        29.85      15.61     
7     861        29.85      15.61     
6     857        29.57      15.54     
5     846        28.82      15.34     
4     831        27.80      15.07     
3     826        27.47      14.98     
2     823        27.27      14.92     
1     820        27.07      14.87     
Average: 909.96
StdDev: 49.44
Min: 818
Max: 976
Spread: 158
True MV: 910.17
Shots/sec: 0.30
Group Size (IN): 0.00

Created: 09-11-2017 06:03:15 PM
Description: Gen1 .22 Mrod
Notes 1: 3000-2550psi
Notes 2: 6 turns CW
Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 18.130
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: N/A
BP: N/A
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
12    1006       40.75      18.24     
11    1015       41.48      18.40     
10    1010       41.07      18.31     
9     1014       41.40      18.38     
8     1022       42.05      18.53     
7     1020       41.89      18.49     
6     1023       42.14      18.55     
5     1020       41.89      18.49     
4     1016       41.56      18.42     
3     1015       41.48      18.40     
2     1008       40.91      18.28     
1     1009       40.99      18.29     
Average: 1014.83
StdDev: 5.69
Min: 1006
Max: 1023
Spread: 17
True MV: 1014.83
Shots/sec: 0.39
Group Size (IN): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on September 15, 2017, 08:49:17 PM
 Lets see some of those new strings!!
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on September 16, 2017, 11:44:35 AM
Shoot i forgot to post here lol. I'll get the ones together later and post all on here
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: rsterne on September 16, 2017, 01:13:39 PM
If you open your post on the GTA, and open the "modify" button, you can then copy/paste the text into a post here on the Guild....

Bob
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on September 16, 2017, 02:00:09 PM
Good idea Bob  :D

Getting closer. The power is just impressive! Definitely looking forward to what this baby can do on a reg.

Created: 09-12-2017 05:57:04 AM
Description: Gen1. 22 Mrod
Notes 1: 2800-1800psi
Notes 2: 
Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 18.130
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 60 °F
BP: 29.94 inHG
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
30    916        33.78      16.61     
29    919        34.01      16.66     
28    927        34.60      16.81     
27    933        35.05      16.92     
26    940        35.58      17.04     
25    944        35.88      17.11     
24    947        36.11      17.17     
23    959        37.03      17.39     
22    962        37.26      17.44     
21    964        37.42      17.48     
20    962        37.26      17.44     
19    969        37.81      17.57     
18    970        37.88      17.59     
17    974        38.20      17.66     
16    980        38.67      17.77     
15    974        38.20      17.66     
14    976        38.35      17.69     
13    970        37.88      17.59     
12    961        37.18      17.42     
11    959        37.03      17.39     
10    964        37.42      17.48     
9     956        36.80      17.33     
8     942        35.73      17.08     
7     943        35.80      17.10     
6     921        34.15      16.70     
5     907        33.12      16.44     
4     905        32.98      16.41     
3     895        32.25      16.23     
2     876        30.90      15.88     
1     870        30.48      15.77     
Average: 942.83
StdDev: 30.03
Min: 870
Max: 980
Spread: 110
True MV: 942.83
Shots/sec: 0.23
Group Size (IN): 0.00

Taming the beast is definitely not easy. I did change to the .125 TP in this string.

Created: 09-12-2017 08:36:59 PM
Description: 22 Gen1 Mrod
Notes 1: 2650-1900psi HS 5.5 CW HT 4.75 CW
Notes 2: one error from a bug that caused a shot to register as 2fps
Distance to Chrono (FT): 2.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 18.130
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 81 °F
BP: 29.78 inHG
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
29    891        31.96      16.15     
28    900        32.61      16.32     
27    906        33.05      16.43     
26    909        33.27      16.48     
25    912        33.49      16.53     
24    917        33.86      16.63     
23    923        34.30      16.73     
22    924        34.38      16.75     
21    932        34.97      16.90     
20    921        34.15      16.70     
19    925        34.45      16.77     
18    920        34.08      16.68     
17    922        34.23      16.72     
16    917        33.86      16.63     
15    914        33.64      16.57     
14    905        32.98      16.41     
13    907        33.12      16.44     
12    897        32.40      16.26     
11    893        32.11      16.19     
10    896        32.32      16.24     
9     898        32.47      16.28     
8     884        31.46      16.03     
7     884        31.46      16.03     
6     884        31.46      16.03     
5     863        29.99      15.65     
4     857        29.57      15.54     
3     846        28.82      15.34     
2     822        27.21      14.90     
1     830        27.74      15.05     
Average: 896.52
StdDev: 28.59
Min: 822
Max: 932
Spread: 110
True MV: 896.72
Shots/sec: 0.13
Group Size (IN): 0.00

Whatcha guys think? I think the Bstaley was the perfect match for taming the beast

Created: 09-14-2017 06:10:32 AM
Description: Gen1 .22 Mrod
Notes 1: 2800-1800psi
Notes 2: HT 3.75 CW HS 6.75 CW
Distance to Chrono (FT): 2.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 18.130
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 59 °F
BP: 29.87 inHG
Shots
#     FPS        FT-LBS     PF
50    839        28.34      15.21     
49    849        29.02      15.39     
48    850        29.09      15.41     
47    851        29.16      15.43     
46    861        29.85      15.61     
45    858        29.64      15.56     
44    853        29.30      15.46     
43    860        29.78      15.59     
42    861        29.85      15.61     
41    862        29.92      15.63     
40    870        30.48      15.77     
39    875        30.83      15.86     
38    872        30.62      15.81     
37    879        31.11      15.94     
36    871        30.55      15.79     
35    871        30.55      15.79     
34    878        31.04      15.92     
33    869        30.41      15.75     
32    881        31.25      15.97     
31    883        31.39      16.01     
30    889        31.82      16.12     
29    887        31.68      16.08     
28    878        31.04      15.92     
27    878        31.04      15.92     
26    878        31.04      15.92     
25    870        30.48      15.77     
24    873        30.69      15.83     
23    874        30.76      15.85     
22    867        30.27      15.72     
21    861        29.85      15.61     
20    873        30.69      15.83     
19    869        30.41      15.75     
18    868        30.34      15.74     
17    870        30.48      15.77     
16    864        30.06      15.66     
15    876        30.90      15.88     
14    862        29.92      15.63     
13    860        29.78      15.59     
12    858        29.64      15.56     
11    857        29.57      15.54     
10    863        29.99      15.65     
9     856        29.50      15.52     
8     861        29.85      15.61     
7     856        29.50      15.52     
6     858        29.64      15.56     
5     853        29.30      15.46     
4     848        28.95      15.37     
3     842        28.55      15.27     
2     845        28.75      15.32     
1     833        27.94      15.10     
Average: 864.40
StdDev: 12.42
Min: 833
Max: 889
Spread: 56
True MV: 864.60
Shots/sec: 0.29
Group Size (IN): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on September 16, 2017, 02:13:27 PM
Travis and I talked last night and I'm going to try open ports (.17-.18) and see what it can do with the Bstaley. After that going regulated 8)
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: triggertreat on November 09, 2017, 01:11:01 PM
I have been testing the new balanced SS valve from A.R.T. (Travis) and am tickled pink with the shot counts and power  I'm getting and with the ease of cocking I'm getting them with.  The SS valve is very efficient too so the shot noise is way down as well.

This is a prototype valve I have been testing and not a production model.

Here is a collection of some strings I have been able to do with this new SS valve.  I started out with low reg. settings and have been working my way up.  Test #5 is the same tune as test #4 with fewer shots for a higher FPE average.

(https://image.ibb.co/iCAVSb/SS_Valve_Test_05.jpg)

(https://image.ibb.co/kXUwfm/SS_Valve_test_04_10_30_17.jpg)

(https://image.ibb.co/izygVm/SS_Valve_test_03_10_29_17.jpg)

Test #2 was a flop

(https://image.ibb.co/mti3o6/SS_valve_1st_test_1_10_25_17.jpg)



Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oneshot61 on November 10, 2017, 05:19:55 AM
Nice power and efficiency. Looks like it prefers a higher reg set point and the inner spring installed? I especially like your top 56 ft lb string for hunting.
 On another note, why is no one testing the kral valve? I haven't been able to get a response or answer.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: triggertreat on November 10, 2017, 07:44:09 AM
Nice power and efficiency. Looks like it prefers a higher reg set point and the inner spring installed? I especially like your top 56 ft lb string for hunting.
 On another note, why is no one testing the kral valve? I haven't been able to get a response or answer.

Thanks! No, just one light spring being used.  the inner adjustment on the TSS is removed for all strings shown.  I ran the reg up in steps and tuned each string below what the max FPE would be for that reg setting for the efficiency while using a very light hammer and spring with little to no preload.  For example, with the 56 FPE tune, I can go all the way up to 59 FPE in my quick test for max with that setup, but am not sure for how many shots.

I popped a couple of pest squirrels in the head recently with the 56 FPE and WOW, the pop was loud when the lead hit.  My cocking is really easy now with this SS valve and with its efficiency and using a light hammer and spring the shots are really quiet, but not the smack down.

I still have a restricted airflow jet in the valve inlet.  Once I increase the jet opening, which is currently at 0.050, the FPE will climb on up.  I currently only have 34cc of plenum space and that is holding me back regulated.  This valve will scream unregulated with just stock like cocking which is the best part.

I have not seen Travis on the forums lately. Must be dealing with some stuff?
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: Dairyboy on November 10, 2017, 10:55:59 AM
Whenever the weather and free time ever coincides with each other I plan on testing mine again. It's all set up regulated ready to go just either too busy or crap weather like right now raining the last few days

Also Daniel, Travis has been struggling alot lately with his back and I know was supposed to go in for tests before surgery. That's made things slow down a bit
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oneshot61 on November 10, 2017, 11:46:06 AM
Man... when your back hurts .. everything hurts. You can't move hardly any direction without pain. He definitely has my sympathies. No worries just curious.. all in good time. These valves are so tuneable... for just about any purpose. Thanks for posting, it's nice to see all the possibilities.
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: bnowlin on November 14, 2017, 03:57:31 PM
Not sure what I am doing but here are my latest strings with regulator @ 1850 and fill at 3200
Created: 11/14/17 11:43 AM
Description: JSB 25.4 at 1850 reg
Notes 1: load 3200
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 3.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 25.40
Temp: 76 °F
BP: 30.19 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
38    885      44.18    22.48 
37    892      44.88    22.66   
36    896      45.29    22.76 
35    902      45.89    22.91 
34    900      45.69    22.86   
33    894      45.08    22.71 
32    897      45.39    22.78 
31    892      44.88    22.66 
30    900      45.69    22.86   
29    894      45.08    22.71 
28    893      44.98    22.68   
27    900      45.69    22.86   
26    899      45.59    22.83   
25    893      44.98    22.68   
24    887      44.38    22.53   
23    882      43.88    22.40   
22    894      45.08    22.71 
21    897      45.39    22.78 
20    896      45.29    22.76 
19    890      44.68    22.61 
18    895      45.19    22.73 
17    890      44.68    22.61 
16    887      44.38    22.53 
15    885      44.18    22.48 
14    896      45.29    22.76 
13    890      44.68    22.61 
12    891      44.78    22.63 
11    887      44.38    22.53 
10    890      44.68    22.61 
9    889      44.58    22.58 
8    894      45.08    22.71 
7    882      43.88    22.40 
6    888      44.48    22.56 
5    893      44.98    22.68 
4    893      44.98    22.68 
3    891      44.78    22.63 
2    891      44.78    22.63 
1    895      45.19    22.73 
Average: 892.4 FPS
SD: 4.9 FPS
Min: 882 FPS
Max: 902 FPS
Spread: 20 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 893 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

Created: 11/14/17 12:01 PM
Description: JSB 33.95 at 1850 Reg
Notes 1: load 3200
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 3.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 33.95
Temp: 75 °F
BP: 30.17 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
38    787      46.70    26.72 
37    788      46.82    26.75 
36    801      48.37    27.19 
35    798      48.01    27.09 
34    798      48.01    27.09 
33    795      47.65    26.99 
32    806      48.98    27.36 
31    798      48.01    27.09 
30    793      47.41    26.92 
29    789      46.94    26.79 
28    786      46.58    26.68   
27    801      48.37    27.19 
26    797      47.89    27.06 
25    797      47.89    27.06 
24    793      47.41    26.92 
23    791      47.17    26.85 
22    785      46.46    26.65   
21    804      48.74    27.30 
20    794      47.53    26.96 
19    787      46.70    26.72 
18    789      46.94    26.79 
17    788      46.82    26.75 
16    785      46.46    26.65 
15    786      46.58    26.68 
14    787      46.70    26.72 
13    785      46.46    26.65 
12    793      47.41    26.92 
11    795      47.65    26.99 
10    794      47.53    26.96 
9    792      47.29    26.89 
8    785      46.46    26.65 
7    790      47.06    26.82 
6    786      46.58    26.68 
5    786      46.58    26.68 
4    795      47.65    26.99 
3    791      47.17    26.85 
2    792      47.29    26.89 
1    787      46.70    26.72 
Average: 791.9 FPS
SD: 5.7 FPS
Min: 785 FPS
Max: 806 FPS
Spread: 21 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 792 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

Created: 11/14/17 12:28 PM
Description: JSB 33.95 at 1850 Reg
Notes 1: load 3200
Notes 2: 1/2 turn  in
Distance to Chrono(FT): 3.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 33.95
Temp: 74 °F
BP: 30.16 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
33    804      48.74    27.30 
32    808      49.22    27.43 
31    809      49.35    27.47 
30    818      50.45    27.77 
29    817      50.33    27.74 
28    816      50.20    27.70 
27    822      50.94    27.91 
26    825      51.32    28.01 
25    817      50.33    27.74 
24    805      48.86    27.33 
23    808      49.22    27.43 
22    821      50.82    27.87 
21    813      49.84    27.60 
20    815      50.08    27.67 
19    817      50.33    27.74 
18    821      50.82    27.87 
17    820      50.70    27.84 
16    812      49.71    27.57 
15    810      49.47    27.50 
14    812      49.71    27.57 
13    815      50.08    27.67 
12    816      50.20    27.70 
11    814      49.96    27.64 
10    816      50.20    27.70 
9    818      50.45    27.77 
8    821      50.82    27.87 
7    809      49.35    27.47 
6    815      50.08    27.67 
5    824      51.19    27.97 
4    813      49.84    27.60 
3    816      50.20    27.70 
2    820      50.70    27.84 
1    805      48.86    27.33 
Average: 814.9 FPS
SD: 5.5 FPS
Min: 804 FPS
Max: 825 FPS
Spread: 21 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 815 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00


Created: 11/14/17 12:43 PM
Description: JSB 25.4 at 1850 Reg
Notes 1: load 3200
Notes 2: 1/2 turn  in
Distance to Chrono(FT): 3.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 25.40
Temp: 75 °F
BP: 30.14 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
#          FPS  FT-LBS      PF
25    901      45.79    22.89 
24    908      46.51    23.06 
23    907      46.40    23.04   
22    907      46.40    23.04   
21    910      46.71    23.11 
20    913      47.02    23.19 
19    912      46.92    23.16 
18    912      46.92    23.16 
17    910      46.71    23.11 
16    915      47.23    23.24 
15    912      46.92    23.16 
14    911      46.82    23.14 
13    911      46.82    23.14 
12    913      47.02    23.19 
11    913      47.02    23.19 
10    910      46.71    23.11 
9    910      46.71    23.11 
8    913      47.02    23.19 
7    919      47.64    23.34 
6    913      47.02    23.19 
5    911      46.82    23.14 
4    914      47.12    23.22 
3    914      47.12    23.22 
2    909      46.61    23.09 
1    910      46.71    23.11 
Average: 911.1 FPS
SD: 3.4 FPS
Min: 901 FPS
Max: 919 FPS
Spread: 18 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 911 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: triggertreat on November 15, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
You've got some good looking strings there Bob!  Not sure of the ending pressures for efficiency, but the power is there.  I am really enjoying my SS valve, especially at 56 FPE and with easy cocking.

Title: Re: Building a better balanced valve
Post by: oldpro on November 18, 2017, 09:49:12 AM
Looks awesome Bob.