The AirGun Guild

General Category => Long Range Shooting with Airguns => Topic started by: DAVID on July 16, 2017, 07:27:30 PM

Title: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 16, 2017, 07:27:30 PM
Today I shot the 308 Texan at 1107 yards and have the hits target is 22 inches
David
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: steveoh on July 16, 2017, 10:04:54 PM
I'm happy if I hit the rats at 25 yards. 1107 yards!?!? Whoa, that's some fine shooting!
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 17, 2017, 03:33:21 AM
MY next target is 1201 yards
David
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Christopher on July 17, 2017, 08:36:54 AM
What weight bullet are you shooting? And how fast? And just out of curiosity what is the drop you are allowing for? :o

Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 17, 2017, 11:40:01 AM
The bullet is Hunters Supply 154 gr spire point  BC .271
velocity is 986 fps 332 ft lbs
833 clicks up 1/4 inch  = 2289.2 inches  ft lbs at 1100 yds is 217
scope base is cold shot m.o.a.b. 300 minuets
scope hawk frontier 2.5x15 120 moa
scope center line is 4 inches to bore center line 8)
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Christopher on July 17, 2017, 01:54:22 PM
Thanks for the response.....sounds like you've got it figured out.  What program are you using to determine your energy at 1100 yards?  217 fpe seems pretty high to me. But I may be wrong.  :-\

Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 17, 2017, 02:08:30 PM
Hornady  ballistics calculator
Here is what is left from bullet at target base so I would say the calculation is spot on ;D
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Christopher on July 17, 2017, 02:56:39 PM
Copy that. Certainly looks like it hit with authority

Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 18, 2017, 05:59:08 PM
Congratulations on a some spectacular shooting.... I am a bit confused by the 217 FPE remaining at 1100 yds., however, that would be 796 fps, which would require a BC (G1) of about 0.75,  not 0.271.... Using a muzzle velocity of 986 fps and a BC (G1) of 0.271, works out to 570 fps at 1100 yds (111 FPE).... This makes the shot even more remarkable, of course.... I used the JBM Ballistics Calculator and assumed the BC quoted was for your local conditions....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 19, 2017, 08:22:10 AM
Hello Bob long time
I am using G7 with Hornady Ballistics Calculator, it is not the best for lead bullets but it will put you in the right starting point.
As you know there is no real formula for lead bullets  what speed do you think it is traveling with these recovered bullet fragments recovered at the
1107 target? ( 20/1 LEAD) The BC .271 is taken from RCBS CAST BULLET book this is a RCBS  308 150 SP, this mold has been discounted from there line of molds but it has work very well in air guns and powder burners.
The Texan has a 1/14 right hand barrel will work with bullets up to 198 grain at close range 300 yards past 300 yards you need to stay with 171 or lighter this is what I have found shooting the 308 Texan.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 19, 2017, 10:38:49 AM
NO idea what the velocity would be from that impact photo.... The only way to determine a BC is to make actual measurements.... I prefer two velocities, the further the separation the better.... With your accuracy at 1100 yards, you should have no qualms about hitting the Chrony at 200 yards.... I'm still betting that the G1 Model would be better for that bullet....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Alan on July 19, 2017, 11:45:11 AM
This is when a Labradar would come in very handy!
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 19, 2017, 06:04:26 PM
NO idea what the velocity would be from that impact photo.... The only way to determine a BC is to make actual measurements.... I prefer two velocities, the further the separation the better.... With your accuracy at 1100 yards, you should have no qualms about hitting the Chrony at 200 yards.... I'm still betting that the G1 Model would be better for that bullet....

Bob
Hello Bob
The BC is right out of RCBS cast bullet reloading book for the RCBS 150 SP bullet. this is RCBS 150 sp,
RCBS has the money to spend on their bullet design so this is what I will use .
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 19, 2017, 09:16:30 PM
Sorry, I googled that bullet -  RCBS 150 sp  - and came up empty, it appears to be obsolete, not even listed on the RCBS website that I could find.... Could you please provide a link to the BC specifications, along with it being done with the G7 Drag Model?.... I have never heard of the G7 model being used on flat-based bullets, it makes no sense as the G7 standard projectile is a boattail....

(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/g7_zpsscbkua7h.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Ballistics/g7_zpsscbkua7h.jpg.html)

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 19, 2017, 09:28:50 PM
 This is not going to end well for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: sixshootertexan on July 19, 2017, 09:55:03 PM
Found this on the molds but no BC.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?314924-Lovergn-style-boolets-in-300-Blackout
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 20, 2017, 07:04:22 AM
Sorry, I googled that bullet -  RCBS 150 sp  - and came up empty, it appears to be obsolete, not even listed on the RCBS website that I could find.... Could you please provide a link to the BC specifications, along with it being done with the G7 Drag Model?.... I have never heard of the G7 model being used on flat-based bullets, it makes no sense as the G7 standard projectile is a boattail....

(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/g7_zpsscbkua7h.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Ballistics/g7_zpsscbkua7h.jpg.html)

Bob
Hello Bob
This is a gas check bullet not a flat base bullet a gas check shank worked like your rebutted boat tail this is the reason for using the G7 you are 100 percent correct about the flat base not doing what this bullet does .
The .271 BC is right out of RCBS cast bullet reloading book.( no longer in print) Yes this bullet was discontinued many years ago but you can pick them up on Ebay.
I should call this the bumble bee bullet NASA says a bumble can not fly but it does just as this bullet is doing.
The flight path of this bullet is amazing
 Go to Hornady Ballistics Calculator use the advance and select the G7  for SP BT not the G1 P FB 
Glad to help
David
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Alan on July 20, 2017, 07:20:39 AM
You're probably correct Travis! All I want to know is, how many shots did it take to hit the target? Once sighted in, how many hits out of say 10 made it? There is a reason I ask.

I've hit prairies dogs at over 1,500 yards more than once. I can't think of any time where it didn't take at least five tries.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 20, 2017, 07:34:24 AM
You're probably correct Travis! All I want to know is, how many shots did it take to hit the target? Once sighted in, how many hits out of say 10 made it? There is a reason I ask.

I've hit prairies dogs at over 1,500 yards more than once. I can't think of any time where it didn't take at least five tries.

After sight in 4rounds 3 hits 1 miss  first 3 hit last one miss so I called it a day,I was shooting in a 10 / 25 mile swirling wind  with down draft at base of mountain and yes in this wind it was luck and skill both.
I did try heaver bullets but with the factory 1/14 barrel the heavy bullets loose stability I can not explain why this bullet works so well but it always comes through. 
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 20, 2017, 09:08:31 AM
David, you can't simply select G7 instead of G1 and that will magically make the bullet change trajectory.... Your numbers don't make any sense, as they exceed what is being achieved by Lapua, Barnes, and all the other long-range bullet manufacturers.... As an example, the 200 gr. Lapua Subsonic, launched at 986 fps, would only be going 695 fps at 1100 yds, over 100 fps SLOWER than what you claim for a bullet weighing only 3/4 as much....  ::) .... If you can't provide actual measured downrange velocity numbers, I will continue to doubt them....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 20, 2017, 10:30:52 AM
David, you can't simply select G7 instead of G1 and that will magically make the bullet change trajectory.... Your numbers don't make any sense, as they exceed what is being achieved by Lapua, Barnes, and all the other long-range bullet manufacturers.... As an example, the 200 gr. Lapua Subsonic, launched at 986 fps, would only be going 695 fps at 1100 yds, over 100 fps SLOWER than what you claim for a bullet weighing only 3/4 as much....  ::) .... If you can't provide actual measured downrange velocity numbers, I will continue to doubt them....

Bob
Hello bob
Here now you have it very good program for bullets  :)
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 20, 2017, 12:32:36 PM
I am very familiar with that program, David.... However, I maintain that using the G7 drag model for your bullet is incorrect.... Unfortunately, as with any calculator or program it is a matter of GIGO.... feed it the wrong data, you will get the wrong results.... Unless you can confirm that the BC, using the G7 model is indeed 0.271.... and that isn't the BC using the G1 Model.... I have no choice but to believe data from firms like Lapua and Barnes, and experts like Brian Litz.... I don't know how I can be more blunt than by saying that I simply do not believe your bullet has a lower drag than the Lapua Subsonic.... Claims like that have to be proven, just saying it is so isn't good enough, IMO....

Here is a program that converts the BC from one Drag Model to another.... http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmgf-5.1.cgi

If the BC (G1) is 0.271 (which I believe), then the BC (G7) is only 0.118 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal.... Try that in your Hornady calculator....  ::)

If the BC (G7) is 0.271 (which I question), then the BC (G1) would have to be 0.625 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 20, 2017, 02:55:51 PM
I am very familiar with that program, David.... However, I maintain that using the G7 drag model for your bullet is incorrect.... Unfortunately, as with any calculator or program it is a matter of GIGO.... feed it the wrong data, you will get the wrong results.... Unless you can confirm that the BC, using the G7 model is indeed 0.271.... and that isn't the BC using the G1 Model.... I have no choice but to believe data from firms like Lapua and Barnes, and experts like Brian Litz.... I don't know how I can be more blunt than by saying that I simply do not believe your bullet has a lower drag than the Lapua Subsonic.... Claims like that have to be proven, just saying it is so isn't good enough, IMO....

Here is a program that converts the BC from one Drag Model to another.... http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmgf-5.1.cgi

If the BC (G1) is 0.271 (which I believe), then the BC (G7) is only 0.118 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal.... Try that in your Hornady calculator....  ::)

If the BC (G7) is 0.271 (which I question), then the BC (G1) would have to be 0.625 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal....

Bob

Your assumptions are spot on  BOB.........Now way that bullet ONLY looses LESS than 200 fps in 1100 yds. As you know i have shot HUNDREDS of rds near and beyond  1000 yds with air and 2 very good bullets. Both  Spitzers with GC bases. My G1 Hornady Ballistics are close with my 257's as his are in .308 using G1 model. Have  shot thru 2 chronographs at same time and get good B.C. Works well to several hundred yds as I have posted before then after 600 yds the charts don't allow enough moa and at 1000 yds need around 15-20 more moa to be dead on.

Pics below of my bullets that are just as sleek as his if not better.........85 and 92 gr spitzers in .257.

I didn't argue in the GTA thread as I have placed more lead at long distance on steel with an airgun, than he has missed shots. And to believe that bullet is any better than pics below from  MOLDS at Arsenal NOW and from ACCURATE in .457, isn't in tune with Reality.

And BOB, yes plug anything  you want into Hornady but doesn't change reality......

Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 20, 2017, 03:39:22 PM
I am very familiar with that program, David.... However, I maintain that using the G7 drag model for your bullet is incorrect.... Unfortunately, as with any calculator or program it is a matter of GIGO.... feed it the wrong data, you will get the wrong results.... Unless you can confirm that the BC, using the G7 model is indeed 0.271.... and that isn't the BC using the G1 Model.... I have no choice but to believe data from firms like Lapua and Barnes, and experts like Brian Litz.... I don't know how I can be more blunt than by saying that I simply do not believe your bullet has a lower drag than the Lapua Subsonic.... Claims like that have to be proven, just saying it is so isn't good enough, IMO....

Here is a program that converts the BC from one Drag Model to another.... http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmgf-5.1.cgi

If the BC (G1) is 0.271 (which I believe), then the BC (G7) is only 0.118 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal.... Try that in your Hornady calculator....  ::)

If the BC (G7) is 0.271 (which I question), then the BC (G1) would have to be 0.625 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal....

Bob
Bob come on out and use the sheet provided to you by me I will let you shoot the gun and we will start at 100 yards sighter dead on then you may count the clicks and shoot next target and see how close click count is ti real life we will go from 100 to 1201 targets are set up and readdy are you coming.?
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 20, 2017, 04:17:11 PM
I am very familiar with that program, David.... However, I maintain that using the G7 drag model for your bullet is incorrect.... Unfortunately, as with any calculator or program it is a matter of GIGO.... feed it the wrong data, you will get the wrong results.... Unless you can confirm that the BC, using the G7 model is indeed 0.271.... and that isn't the BC using the G1 Model.... I have no choice but to believe data from firms like Lapua and Barnes, and experts like Brian Litz.... I don't know how I can be more blunt than by saying that I simply do not believe your bullet has a lower drag than the Lapua Subsonic.... Claims like that have to be proven, just saying it is so isn't good enough, IMO....

Here is a program that converts the BC from one Drag Model to another.... http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmgf-5.1.cgi

If the BC (G1) is 0.271 (which I believe), then the BC (G7) is only 0.118 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal.... Try that in your Hornady calculator....  ::)

If the BC (G7) is 0.271 (which I question), then the BC (G1) would have to be 0.625 at 986 fps for a 154 gr. bullet in .308 cal....

Bob

Your assumptions are spot on  BOB.........Now way that bullet ONLY looses LESS than 200 fps in 1100 yds. As you know i have shoot HUNDREDS of rds near and beyond  1000 yds with air and 2 very good bullets. Both  Spitzers with GC bases. My G1 Hornady Ballistics are close with my 257's as his are in .308 using G1 model. Have  shot thru 2 chronographs at same time and get good B.C. Works well to several hundred yds as I have posted before then after 600 yds the charts don't allow enough moa and at 1000 yds need around 15-20 more moa to be dead on.

Pics below of my bullets that are just as sleek as his if not better.........85 and 92 gr spitzers in .257.

I didn't argue in the GTA thread as I have placed more lead at long distance on steel with an airgun, than he has missed shots. And to believe that bullet is any better than pics below from  MOLDS at Arsenal NOW and from ACCURATE in .457, isn't in tune with Reality.

And BOB, yes plug anything  you want into Hornady but doesn't change reality......

Carl

Carl I will  give you the same offer I have just given Bob,
I will hand you the gun with this bullet and let you sight in at 100 yards and we will progress out to 1201  using the provided chart
I  do not believe you have put more bullets down range but you may I average over 100,000 shots per year for the last 30 years what is your shot count per year?

I do believe the proof is in the recovered bullets you have perfect mushroom bullets at what distance?

NO WAY the bullets were recovered at 1108 yards your bullet has to be falling downward from over 200 feet above target with a .257 ?

what is your trajectory at 1108 yards very simple question.

I do not see this in the recovered bullets you are posting here, I see a slight downward smear on bullets nose there is no way they were recovered at 1108 yards unless you were 100 yards below said target? 

My bullet fragments show they are coming from a above angle the fragments were collected at the 1107 target which plainly show bullet coming into target from a above angel.

I do believe it is funny you chose this forum to call me a phony .
Well the ball is in your court you have the invitation are you man enough to take it ?
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 20, 2017, 04:56:23 PM
No, David, I will not be coming, I am a retiree on a limited and meager income.... but thanks for the invitation.... I await some genuine Chrony results for your bullet to PROVE that the BC is 0.271 or better using the G7 model.... Otherwise, I refuse to believe it is better than any other bullet out there, even much heavier boattails such as the Lapua Subsonic.... which you claim to be beating by over 100 fps at 1100 yards....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 20, 2017, 05:19:13 PM
 The simple answer to all this is to send said bullets to a third party for testing and there you have it.......Im sure we can find someone....
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 20, 2017, 06:57:41 PM
Nick has a LabRadar....  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 20, 2017, 08:03:32 PM
David,

I will answer some  of your quotes........"I  do not believe you have put more bullets down range but you may I average over 100,000 shots per year for the last 30 years what is your shot count per year? "

I said i have shot MORE LEAD ON STEEL WITH AIRGUN at  DISTANCE!!   You make lead bullets and MOST ARE NOT SHOT WITH THE TEXAN or and airgun..... I have been shooting for 67 years, Last 30 at 1000 yds, from 50 bmg at RATON NM at yearly championship matches. Also F-Class. I just shoot and have no idea of the tens of thousands of rds shot.

"I do believe the proof is in the recovered bullets you have perfect mushroom bullets at what distance?"

Picture says. 1065 yds and other pic I found was 800 yds. Beyond 600 yds on steel perfect mushrooms. Below 600 yds it is DUST

""what is your trajectory at 1108 yards very simple question.
I do not see this in the recovered bullets you are posting here, I see a slight downward smear on bullets nose there is no way they were recovered at 1108 yards unless you were 100 yards below said target""

Yes my impact zone is maybe 35 feet above firing line. On the bullets you question, on steel plate (1065yds) i set plate leaning forward to deflect bullets DOWN,  as a prior trip plate was verticle and when I got home  video was glared out as sun on white paint washed it  out. On the next time out, and is 140 mi trip to my long range, I did tilt steel plate just a tad to far forward of verticle, and it sent hits right to the base and as you suggest they dropping in exaggerated the degree. About 35*angle, dropping in and plate FORWARD LEANING. I include a FRAME from Video of 1108 yd bullets, watch video and at end I shoot them in dirt.

At 1108 yds My  COLD SHOT 300 MOAB was at 298 MOA.

""I do believe it is funny you chose this forum to call me a phony .""

You need to COMPREHEND what you read......No where did I call you a  phony. I NEVER said you didn't make the shot. I DO NOT BELIEVE the G7 Hold Over numbers at all.......I didn't respond to all your slurs to West Coast Residents on GTA and those who didn't agree with you, as I knew that thread was headed for DELETE .

I found it funny in that GTA thread that because I wasn't at gun in video that it didn't happen... Yet you post a still of 3 shots on a plate and is exclusive proof??  For your information a camera on shooter and another at target isn't proof either.......The camera close up on target when in editing software can be timed at editing with shooter firing, and be only 100 yds .......So can be faked too.......Witnesses as you suggest.  I HAVE THEM on MOST of my videos I had one of two friends that wanted and liked to watch most times out. If you searched the 1065 yd video, at end one of my friends who was in the pits and when I radioed I was coming down he ran to look at target which is up the hillside above impact berm and is in video as I left it in. On the 1108 video first time last year the valley was so full of smoke from  all western fires. I could see impact zone with naked eye, set up and fired at zone without target up, and scope compressed all the polutants in air and could NOT SEE DUST AT IMPACT. I had witness with me.....Didn't shoot and several days later inversion layer lifted to be able to see but friend had to work and didn't have one that day.....That is fine as I started the long range quest over 2 years ago to see how far air could go. Never shot an airgun before.......When I got to 500 meters I was amazed and started setting camera at target to put on my Channel of all the Jazz/Ragtime music i had and my interested friends. After or before  shooting I show target view from the bench and how far it is. If  someone doesn't believe me that is fine. I know I did it, and my friends have seen me do it and I am satisfied as I did it  to please ME!! And then I shared with others.......At 76 yrs old I don't much care....

Why would I care to drive and see you do it. I know it can be done and soon I will be to 1000 yds with my .45 TEXAN and 384 gr and 412 gr bullets.....Video of 4" clays at 600 yds so far.... 

Pics i FOUND of spent hits on STEEL  First 1108 and next was 905 yds on steel.....

Cheers  Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 20, 2017, 08:05:19 PM
Nick has a LabRadar....  ;)

Bob

AND a .308 TEXAN
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 20, 2017, 08:09:34 PM
 Sounds like we can end this debate with a hand full of bullets
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 21, 2017, 05:28:06 AM
Sounds like we can end this debate with a hand full of bullets
Yes, Very simple shout up and shoot L.O.L.
The silence from the keyboard Kings is speaking volumes. 8)
David
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 21, 2017, 08:12:13 AM
I'm still waiting for you to offer even a shred of proof that the BC of your bullet was measured using the G7 standard.... particularly on such an old (discontinued) bullet design.... Alternately, we need to see some Chrony readings to determine how much the bullet is slowing at 100 and 200 yards, so that the actual BC can be calculated using whatever standard suits the shape.... I tried to explain that you can't just "choose" to assume that the BC is the G7 standard without some proof, but you refuse to provide it....

Seems to me the silence from the keyboard is yours, because you have no such proof to show us.... It is you making wild claims that your bullet outperforms all other known bullets, time to pony up some proof, IMO.... Incidently, I found the BC of the RCBS 180 - SP (GC) it is 0.293 measured to the G1 standard.... NOT the G7 standard....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 21, 2017, 08:39:32 AM
Bob, I posted on your thread on GTA asking about fpe of Texan .308.  I bought these bullets off Midway yesterday and I will shoot them past the Labradar and measure the BC.  Dave won't be silent on the keyboard, he even shoots 1100 yards from one.

Yesterday I shot a crow at the farm.  I should go back and get it because I think Dave may be hungry.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 21, 2017, 04:14:12 PM
Sounds like we can end this debate with a hand full of bullets
Yes, Very simple shout up and shoot L.O.L.
The silence from the keyboard Kings is speaking volumes. 8)
David

I gave lengthy answer to many of your questions last evening  Reply #28 on: July 20, 2017, 08:03:32 PM

Haven't heard a world in response??????????????

Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 21, 2017, 05:31:10 PM
I'm still waiting for you to offer even a shred of proof that the BC of your bullet was measured using the G7 standard.... particularly on such an old (discontinued) bullet design.... Alternately, we need to see some Chrony readings to determine how much the bullet is slowing at 100 and 200 yards, so that the actual BC can be calculated using whatever standard suits the shape.... I tried to explain that you can't just "choose" to assume that the BC is the G7 standard without some proof, but you refuse to provide it....

Seems to me the silence from the keyboard is yours, because you have no such proof to show us.... It is you making wild claims that your bullet outperforms all other known bullets, time to pony up some proof, IMO.... Incidently, I found the BC of the RCBS 180 - SP (GC) it is 0.293 measured to the G1 standard.... NOT the G7 standard....

Bob
BOB
RCBS is the one quoting .271 bc WHY ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT THE .271 BC .RCBS is the largest reloading manufacture in the world,
RCBS will always have more resources then you of I will ever have why can't you accept the fact?
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 21, 2017, 05:41:43 PM
Bob is waiting, as well as the rest of us, that the BC is a G7 BC.  Nobody questioning if the BC is .2XX, the question is the standard for that BC used in the calcs for G1 or G7.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 21, 2017, 05:47:28 PM
David,

I will answer some  of your quotes........"I  do not believe you have put more bullets down range but you may I average over 100,000 shots per year for the last 30 years what is your shot count per year? "

I said i have shot MORE LEAD ON STEEL WITH AIRGUN at  DISTANCE!!   You make lead bullets and MOST ARE NOT SHOT WITH THE TEXAN or and airgun..... I have been shooting for 67 years, Last 30 at 1000 yds, from 50 bmg at RATON NM at yearly championship matches. Also F-Class. I just shoot and have no idea of the tens of thousands of rds shot.

"I do believe the proof is in the recovered bullets you have perfect mushroom bullets at what distance?"

Picture says. 1065 yds and other pic I found was 800 yds. Beyond 600 yds on steel perfect mushrooms. Below 600 yds it is DUST

""what is your trajectory at 1108 yards very simple question.
I do not see this in the recovered bullets you are posting here, I see a slight downward smear on bullets nose there is no way they were recovered at 1108 yards unless you were 100 yards below said target""

Yes my impact zone is maybe 35 feet above firing line. On the bullets you question, on steel plate (1065yds) i set plate leaning forward to deflect bullets DOWN,  as a prior trip plate was verticle and when I got home  video was glared out as sun on white paint washed it  out. On the next time out, and is 140 mi trip to my long range, I did tilt steel plate just a tad to far forward of verticle, and it sent hits right to the base and as you suggest they dropping in exaggerated the degree. About 35*angle, dropping in and plate FORWARD LEANING. I include a FRAME from Video of 1108 yd bullets, watch video and at end I shoot them in dirt.

At 1108 yds My  COLD SHOT 300 MOAB was at 298 MOA.

""I do believe it is funny you chose this forum to call me a phony .""

You need to COMPREHEND what you read......No where did I call you a  phony. I NEVER said you didn't make the shot. I DO NOT BELIEVE the G7 Hold Over numbers at all.......I didn't respond to all your slurs to West Coast Residents on GTA and those who didn't agree with you, as I knew that thread was headed for DELETE .

I found it funny in that GTA thread that because I wasn't at gun in video that it didn't happen... Yet you post a still of 3 shots on a plate and is exclusive proof??  For your information a camera on shooter and another at target isn't proof either.......The camera close up on target when in editing software can be timed at editing with shooter firing, and be only 100 yds .......So can be faked too.......Witnesses as you suggest.  I HAVE THEM on MOST of my videos I had one of two friends that wanted and liked to watch most times out. If you searched the 1065 yd video, at end one of my friends who was in the pits and when I radioed I was coming down he ran to look at target which is up the hillside above impact berm and is in video as I left it in. On the 1108 video first time last year the valley was so full of smoke from  all western fires. I could see impact zone with naked eye, set up and fired at zone without target up, and scope compressed all the polutants in air and could NOT SEE DUST AT IMPACT. I had witness with me.....Didn't shoot and several days later inversion layer lifted to be able to see but friend had to work and didn't have one that day.....That is fine as I started the long range quest over 2 years ago to see how far air could go. Never shot an airgun before.......When I got to 500 meters I was amazed and started setting camera at target to put on my Channel of all the Jazz/Ragtime music i had and my interested friends. After or before  shooting I show target view from the bench and how far it is. If  someone doesn't believe me that is fine. I know I did it, and my friends have seen me do it and I am satisfied as I did it  to please ME!! And then I shared with others.......At 76 yrs old I don't much care....

Why would I care to drive and see you do it. I know it can be done and soon I will be to 1000 yds with my .45 TEXAN and 384 gr and 412 gr bullets.....Video of 4" clays at 600 yds so far.... 

Pics i FOUND of spent hits on STEEL  First 1108 and next was 905 yds on steel.....

Cheers  Carl
BLA BLA BLA    Why will you not give  your trajectory for your supposed 1108 shot  with a .257 ?
Very simple question my 1107 target measure 1.34 MOA what size is 1.34 Moa in inches ?
David
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: DAVID on July 21, 2017, 06:22:52 PM
Bob is waiting, as well as the rest of us, that the BC is a G7 BC.  Nobody questioning if the BC is .2XX, the question is the standard for that BC used in the calcs for G1 or G7.

You simply do not understand Ballistics do you?
G1 is when you have a flat base IE you put the gas check in the  lead bullet this is a G1 ( flat base with pointed nose bullet)
If you leave the gas check off you have a rebated boat tail  G7 (is for modern American boat tail with pointed nose bullet  not rebated boat tails) 
Both G1 AND G7 are for jacketed bullets not lead very simple NO LEAD data.
Now Bob will have to tell you there is no modern BALLISTIC program for rebated BT,  ZIP, O, NODDA, NO PROGRAM AVAIL .
So we have to use what is available and modify the figures with live fire very simple the fact sheet will give you a starting point for the yardage you are trying to shoot.
BBT BULLET MOLDS ( Bobs boat tail ) are using rebated boat tails, not modern American boat tails as found on all American jacketed bullets.
Bob is not a American he is Canadian and this  OLD European BT is what he is familiar with.
Just simple facts. ;D
David
 
 
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 21, 2017, 07:09:54 PM
David,

I will answer some  of your quotes........"I  do not believe you have put more bullets down range but you may I average over 100,000 shots per year for the last 30 years what is your shot count per year? "

I said i have shot MORE LEAD ON STEEL WITH AIRGUN at  DISTANCE!!   You make lead bullets and MOST ARE NOT SHOT WITH THE TEXAN or and airgun..... I have been shooting for 67 years, Last 30 at 1000 yds, from 50 bmg at RATON NM at yearly championship matches. Also F-Class. I just shoot and have no idea of the tens of thousands of rds shot.

"I do believe the proof is in the recovered bullets you have perfect mushroom bullets at what distance?"

Picture says. 1065 yds and other pic I found was 800 yds. Beyond 600 yds on steel perfect mushrooms. Below 600 yds it is DUST

""what is your trajectory at 1108 yards very simple question.
I do not see this in the recovered bullets you are posting here, I see a slight downward smear on bullets nose there is no way they were recovered at 1108 yards unless you were 100 yards below said target""

Yes my impact zone is maybe 35 feet above firing line. On the bullets you question, on steel plate (1065yds) i set plate leaning forward to deflect bullets DOWN,  as a prior trip plate was verticle and when I got home  video was glared out as sun on white paint washed it  out. On the next time out, and is 140 mi trip to my long range, I did tilt steel plate just a tad to far forward of verticle, and it sent hits right to the base and as you suggest they dropping in exaggerated the degree. About 35*angle, dropping in and plate FORWARD LEANING. I include a FRAME from Video of 1108 yd bullets, watch video and at end I shoot them in dirt.

At 1108 yds My  COLD SHOT 300 MOAB was at 298 MOA.

""I do believe it is funny you chose this forum to call me a phony .""

You need to COMPREHEND what you read......No where did I call you a  phony. I NEVER said you didn't make the shot. I DO NOT BELIEVE the G7 Hold Over numbers at all.......I didn't respond to all your slurs to West Coast Residents on GTA and those who didn't agree with you, as I knew that thread was headed for DELETE .

I found it funny in that GTA thread that because I wasn't at gun in video that it didn't happen... Yet you post a still of 3 shots on a plate and is exclusive proof??  For your information a camera on shooter and another at target isn't proof either.......The camera close up on target when in editing software can be timed at editing with shooter firing, and be only 100 yds .......So can be faked too.......Witnesses as you suggest.  I HAVE THEM on MOST of my videos I had one of two friends that wanted and liked to watch most times out. If you searched the 1065 yd video, at end one of my friends who was in the pits and when I radioed I was coming down he ran to look at target which is up the hillside above impact berm and is in video as I left it in. On the 1108 video first time last year the valley was so full of smoke from  all western fires. I could see impact zone with naked eye, set up and fired at zone without target up, and scope compressed all the polutants in air and could NOT SEE DUST AT IMPACT. I had witness with me.....Didn't shoot and several days later inversion layer lifted to be able to see but friend had to work and didn't have one that day.....That is fine as I started the long range quest over 2 years ago to see how far air could go. Never shot an airgun before.......When I got to 500 meters I was amazed and started setting camera at target to put on my Channel of all the Jazz/Ragtime music i had and my interested friends. After or before  shooting I show target view from the bench and how far it is. If  someone doesn't believe me that is fine. I know I did it, and my friends have seen me do it and I am satisfied as I did it  to please ME!! And then I shared with others.......At 76 yrs old I don't much care....

Why would I care to drive and see you do it. I know it can be done and soon I will be to 1000 yds with my .45 TEXAN and 384 gr and 412 gr bullets.....Video of 4" clays at 600 yds so far.... 

Pics i FOUND of spent hits on STEEL  First 1108 and next was 905 yds on steel.....

Cheers  Carl
BLA BLA BLA    Why will you not give  your trajectory for your supposed 1108 shot  with a .257 ?
Very simple question my 1107 target measure 1.34 MOA what size is 1.34 Moa in inches ?
David

I gave you the TRAJECTORY which is the ARC of bullet travel, and was 298 moa.......

You are giving GROUP measurements in moa, of supposed 3 shots and I read you said a 4th shot missed, How does that figure in to the average????  I  put 12 shots on the plate.

Also I have shot in NM wind at RATON many times, and you shooting as you  said with gusting 10-25 mph winds with an airgun. Put a 5 shot group on that plate with some video..........Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn now and again.....

G1 specs for that lead bullet give around 29.3" of lateral movement for EACH MPH of wind change, FULL VALUE at 25 mph, and 1100 yds...... Airgun speeds..And you had 10-25 mph GUSTING........You miss wind call of 1 mph alone and see how groups get larger?

The more you open your mouth the more you prove how FULL OF IT you are.........

I didn't answer on GTA as I know trying to talk to and individual with your antagonistic mindset is futile and a total waste.

Good day sir...............Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 21, 2017, 07:57:49 PM
Bob is waiting, as well as the rest of us, that the BC is a G7 BC.  Nobody questioning if the BC is .2XX, the question is the standard for that BC used in the calcs for G1 or G7.

You simply do not understand Ballistics do you?
G1 is when you have a flat base IE you put the gas check in the  lead bullet this is a G1 ( flat base with pointed nose bullet)
If you leave the gas check off you have a rebated boat tail  G7 (is for modern American boat tail with pointed nose bullet  not rebated boat tails) 
Both G1 AND G7 are for jacketed bullets not lead very simple NO LEAD data.
Now Bob will have to tell you there is no modern BALLISTIC program for rebated BT,  ZIP, O, NODDA, NO PROGRAM AVAIL .
So we have to use what is available and modify the figures with live fire very simple the fact sheet will give you a starting point for the yardage you are trying to shoot.
BBT BULLET MOLDS ( Bobs boat tail ) are using rebated boat tails, not modern American boat tails as found on all American jacketed bullets.
Bob is not a American he is Canadian and this  OLD European BT is what he is familiar with.
Just simple facts. ;D
David
 

I am surprised that you do not understand ballistics quite frankly.  No problem with you using a G7 calculator.  However, not knowing you can not use the G1 BC is comical.  Here is a snippet from Berger Bullets who we can all agree makes some of the best high quality bullets available in the US and have good reference material.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/a-better-ballistic-coefficient/

Quote
Why were we stuck with G1 for so long?
One obvious difference between G1 BCs and G7 BCs is that the numeric value of the G7 BC is lower than the numeric value of the G1 BC. For example, if a bullet has a G1 BC of .550, the G7 BC will be close to .282 (same bullet). Even though the G7 BC of .282 is a much more accurate representation of the bullet at all speeds, the numeric value of the G7 BC is lower.

Quote
Using the G7 BC: Calculating trajectories
Most modern ballistics programs are being created with the ability to use BCs that are referenced to different standards (G1, G5, G7, etc). Calculating a trajectory with a G7 BC is as simple as selecting “G7 BC” in the program, and giving the program a G7 BC instead of a G1 BC.

This seems to suggest that the two numbers for G1 and G7 are different.  That sounds familiar, that's what Bob said.  So you do not understand, everyone else here does.

I have no doubt all Carl's video and hits are 100% real.  He has broadened my thinking about airguns and bullets.  I am sure glad he go into airguns.

The fact you do not understand how to use these programs, should be embarrassing to you.  Plain and simple.  You put a G1 BC into a G7 calculator which produced outrageously great numbers.  You did not even shoot the 1100 yard shot, that is clear.  You calculated everything, showed a metal target with hits on it and tried to pass it on as you shooting it at 1100 yards.  That's why you think a 10 year old can do it.  They can use a keyboard, so they can also make the same shot you did since you also shot with a keyboard.

Bob caught it right away and called you out.  If you had not used the wrong BC, using a G1 BC for a G7 calculation, you may have got away with it.  Then all your math would have worked out. Instead, your math is way off meaning no way you took those shots with those clicks.  Luckily for the airgun community, Bob caught your mistake and called you out.  You are trapped in a lie and no way out.  Disgraceful.  Fraudulent.


Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 21, 2017, 08:29:13 PM
Quote
You simply do not understand Ballistics do you?

David, right back at ya'.... You cannot use a G1 Ballistics Coefficient in a calculator set up for G7.... As I stated earlier, if the BC (G1) is 0.271 at your velocity the BC (G7) you have to use in a G7 calculator is 0.118....

In case you missed it, here is the calculator to convert G1 to G7.... http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmgf-5.1.cgi

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 22, 2017, 10:53:39 AM
 Most websites would close this topic down but Im not going to till we find out whos right and whos wrong here but lets keep it somewhat friendly till then please. The answers are coming.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Slayer on July 22, 2017, 03:12:31 PM
Quote
833 clicks up 1/4 inch  = 2289.2 inches  ft lbs at 1100 yds is 217

This is your firing solution, 833 clicks or 208 MOA?  I'm sorry if I missed it what is your zero distance?
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Crosman999 on July 22, 2017, 04:25:02 PM
I have read all this and find it quite entertaining, stating a "world record" may have set you up for criticism, I'm sure you never planned on that. I think a world record should have some proof other than a few photographs...just a thought. I have seen Carl's videos and know the guy can shoot not only from that but from people I know that have actually witnessed it. When I see this "World Record" all over Facebook and the internet it kinda bothers me because it proves people will believe anything they read. Sorry to be blatantly honest in what many are thinking of this. Positive note this thread has already given some good thoughts and info...Awsome to have a place to discuss things like this. I think a different title may have taken this in a more forgiving direction! ????
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Alan on July 22, 2017, 06:14:11 PM
Here is a little problem for you gear heads to (re)calculate. If my figures are correct, the bullet (at the weight, velocity, BC, scope height & preset, etc.) wouldn't travel that far, unless he was atop a tall building!
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 22, 2017, 06:52:24 PM
My calculator shows a maximum range of 2692 yds. at a 36 deg. angle at sea level.... At the 7800 ft. altitude he was shooting at, that increases to 3301 yds. at a 38 deg. angle.... Those are using the (correct) G1 drag model.... I have no idea how you would include his scope height into those calculations, or whether that would make a difference in the maximum range.... I rather doubt it would matter, as the barrel elevation from horizontal is the governing factor....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Alan on July 23, 2017, 04:54:29 AM
I hope I didn't imply that....

The scope settings would aim the bullet too low. Like I said, I hope I didn't mis calculate.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 23, 2017, 08:32:00 AM
Sorry, Alan, I misunderstood you.... Yes, his calculations are off by about 40 MOA (roughly 40 feet or 500 inches) at 1100 yds.... The bullets would not have reached the target if he simply clicked and shot, IMO....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 26, 2017, 05:13:27 PM
I think the fact David has not responded to this thread shows he sees how he screwed up.  There is no way to defend it - it is all in black and white.  I will still test the bullets for their BC when I get them and borrow a .308 rifle to test in.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 26, 2017, 07:49:16 PM
 Nick How much FPE do you need to test them? I have a 308 but maxes out around 220 fpe. No where near the 332 claimed output  of said Texan.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 26, 2017, 08:12:33 PM
Those are pretty heavy bullets.  220 fpe for those bullets is around 800 fps.  To be honest, I already know the results, or at least the rough numbers.

In my opinion 800 fps would be fine because we are talking about a discrepancy of huge proportions.  He could argue that the results would be different at 150 fps higher velocity but we are talking about twice the BC not a 10% difference.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Bigredhunter00 on July 27, 2017, 12:02:13 PM
David

dont worry its impossible to hit a pdog at 84 yards and kill it with a 177 break barrel gamo.  84yardsmyass right grumpy lol.  Hey the shooting gods were in your favor and doubters will always doubt. 
I suggest a video for proof since obviously pictures can lie.  or so im told
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 27, 2017, 05:39:17 PM
I received the bullets today in the mail and I am leaving to go hunting in the morning.  I have a .308 Slayer to bring with me so I will do my best to do the BC testing with the Labradar and report back early next week.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 27, 2017, 05:43:59 PM
David

dont worry its impossible to hit a pdog at 84 yards and kill it with a 177 break barrel gamo.  84yardsmyass right grumpy lol.  Hey the shooting gods were in your favor and doubters will always doubt. 
I suggest a video for proof since obviously pictures can lie.  or so im told

If you follow what David wrote and how he came to his numbers after zeroing in at 100 yards and then simply clicking the MOA and hitting the target 3 out of 4 times it is impossible based on the numbers he used.  He used the wrong BC for the calculation used, or you could word it that he used the wrong calculation for the correct BC.  Either way, no way possible what he claims is true.

No doubt an air gun can reach out to 1100 yards, Carl has been past it.  There is no way David did it as he explained it, or, he did not do it at all.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: sixshootertexan on July 28, 2017, 04:52:09 AM
Well if he has the MOA in the scope mounts that it looks like he has, then there is no way he can zero at 100 yards than click out to 1100 yards. Just not enough clicks in the scope.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 28, 2017, 09:57:38 AM
Well if he has the MOA in the scope mounts that it looks like he has, then there is no way he can zero at 100 yards than click out to 1100 yards. Just not enough clicks in the scope.

David said he has the Cold Shot 300 moa scope mount rail.......I used  that too and for my last video of last year I used 298 moa or close to it to get to 1108 yds and be right on middle crosshairs in scope....I had more mil dots and 25 moa i scope available if needed............He had the necessary equipment to get elevation.. Using a G7 model for the .271 BC he relies on is flat wrong, or numbers that model gave him. I will tell you having calculated MY OWN BC ###'s shooting thru 2 Chrony's at same time, even then those bc TEND TO BE SHORT in moa needed the further  distance shot.  2 1/2 yrs of constant airgun and cast lead bullets I CAST, shot at distances in 100 yd intervals to 1108 yds, I will guarantee the bullet he is shooting has no better flight characteristics than ones i did shoot. Except the fact it is heavier and that does help to a point but it will slow down over that distance by 400-500 fps and that is where he doesn't get it.......May be and probably is for his BBL a good bullet but has no magic qualities. Nick will have Lab Radar ## soon

Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Martin on July 28, 2017, 09:15:21 PM
Wow.  A lot of reading.  I am not offering to get between the dogs peeing on this tree but I do remember one of the earlier statements of "This isn't going to end well.  I think that was about the only thing that couldn't be argued.  I'm going back on to view more videos.  More fun.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 02:27:33 PM
I shot the Hunter Supply bullet this weekend.  I shot it in a Slayer with the same twist barrel with a different tune that Texan but close enough for sure.  I am going to post the data here and I am sure Bob will do the honors.  I did not have internet, or even text, over the weekend where we were hunting so I have not calculated it yet but I did get an idea of roughly where it is. 

So I only recorded 6 shots because they were so close I knew they are good numbers and the BC testing we are doing is to see if the bullet is a magnitude better than all the other bullets on the market, not to get a BC that we can use to calculate drop and moa with.  I did take more shots than what I recorded and they were all the same fps loss from muzzle to 50 yards.

Muzzle/50 yard fps     fps loss
691/674          17
704/683          21
696/677          19
688/664          24
686/666          22
688/665          23

Altitude 3925 feet
Temp 95 deg F
Baro Pres 27.06 in hg
Wet/Dry Bulb 63.3/42.9
Humidity 18.0 %
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 03:00:55 PM
 Nick first thank you for taking your valuable time and expense to clarify this. Second that Slayer has some serious power for a bullpup! Third I hope the youtube claims and facebook claims are removed now as I feel that Rifle50 at this point STILL has the world record and this should be justified. I dont think anything else I would post would be of much use so I will leave it at that. Nick I assume this was done with your Lab Radar?
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 04:03:41 PM
I thank you.  Yes this was done with my labradar at my campsite.  I am waiting for Bob to post the actual g1 bc.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 04:19:50 PM
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmbcv-5.1.cgi
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 04:20:38 PM
I know how to calculate, as you can see, David is a tad off.  I  just wanted to give Bob the honors.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 30, 2017, 04:22:19 PM
I shot the Hunter Supply bullet this weekend.  I shot it in a Slayer with the same twist barrel with a different tune that Texan but close enough for sure.  I am going to post the data here and I am sure Bob will do the honors.  I did not have internet, or even text, over the weekend where we were hunting so I have not calculated it yet but I did get an idea of roughly where it is. 

So I only recorded 6 shots because they were so close I knew they are good numbers and the BC testing we are doing is to see if the bullet is a magnitude better than all the other bullets on the market, not to get a BC that we can use to calculate drop and moa with.  I did take more shots than what I recorded and they were all the same fps loss from muzzle to 50 yards.

Muzzle/50 yard fps     fps loss
691/674          17
704/683          21
696/677          19
688/664          24
686/666          22
688/665          23

Altitude 3925 feet
Temp 95 deg F
Baro Pres 27.06 in hg
Wet/Dry Bulb 63.3/42.9
Humidity 18.0 %

Using the JBM BALLISTIC CALCULATOR, the average of 21 fps lost over 150 ft/50 yds calculates to .175 B.C. at the speed they were shot..........

Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 04:27:37 PM
I know how to calculate, as you can see, David is a tad off.  I  just wanted to give Bob the honors.
I know You do Nick and Bob is working on a more technical write up than I could possibly do this is not my cup of tea and more suited to your and Bobs skills just thought I would add a link for people who donot know how to check it themselves.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 30, 2017, 04:30:24 PM
Is the 27.06" your station (ambient) pressure, or corrected to sea level for your 3925' altitude?....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 04:33:17 PM
I shot the Hunter Supply bullet this weekend.  I shot it in a Slayer with the same twist barrel with a different tune that Texan but close enough for sure.  I am going to post the data here and I am sure Bob will do the honors.  I did not have internet, or even text, over the weekend where we were hunting so I have not calculated it yet but I did get an idea of roughly where it is. 

So I only recorded 6 shots because they were so close I knew they are good numbers and the BC testing we are doing is to see if the bullet is a magnitude better than all the other bullets on the market, not to get a BC that we can use to calculate drop and moa with.  I did take more shots than what I recorded and they were all the same fps loss from muzzle to 50 yards.

Muzzle/50 yard fps     fps loss
691/674          17
704/683          21
696/677          19
688/664          24
686/666          22
688/665          23

Altitude 3925 feet
Temp 95 deg F
Baro Pres 27.06 in hg
Wet/Dry Bulb 63.3/42.9
Humidity 18.0 %

Using the JBM BALLISTIC CALCULATOR, the average of 21 fps lost over 150 ft/50 yds calculates to .175 B.C. at the speed they were shot..........

Carl

Carl, was that a G1 BC?  Did you calculate the G1 and G7.  He used a G7 calculator so we need a G7 BC.  He stated he used .271 in a G7 calculator.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 04:36:40 PM
The best I could come up with was .215 in G1 and average of .185 in G1 now same data in G7 .126 so basically a whiff on the target....
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 04:50:07 PM
 Here is a calculator to correct for above sea level barometer pressure  http://www.csgnetwork.com/barcorrecthcalc.html
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rifle 50 on July 30, 2017, 04:54:32 PM
I shot the Hunter Supply bullet this weekend.  I shot it in a Slayer with the same twist barrel with a different tune that Texan but close enough for sure.  I am going to post the data here and I am sure Bob will do the honors.  I did not have internet, or even text, over the weekend where we were hunting so I have not calculated it yet but I did get an idea of roughly where it is. 

So I only recorded 6 shots because they were so close I knew they are good numbers and the BC testing we are doing is to see if the bullet is a magnitude better than all the other bullets on the market, not to get a BC that we can use to calculate drop and moa with.  I did take more shots than what I recorded and they were all the same fps loss from muzzle to 50 yards.

Muzzle/50 yard fps     fps loss
691/674          17
704/683          21
696/677          19
688/664          24
686/666          22
688/665          23

Altitude 3925 feet
Temp 95 deg F
Baro Pres 27.06 in hg
Wet/Dry Bulb 63.3/42.9
Humidity 18.0 %

Using the JBM BALLISTIC CALCULATOR, the average of 21 fps lost over 150 ft/50 yds calculates to .175 B.C. at the speed they were shot..........

Carl

Carl, was that a G1 BC?  Did you calculate the G1 and G7.  He used a G7 calculator so we need a G7 BC.  He stated he used .271 in a G7 calculator.

That would be G1.................Carl
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 04:57:30 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 05:32:38 PM
I added the JMB Ballistics results for both the G1 and G7.  In summary the G7 BC came out to .103 measured BC.  Nowhere near the BC used of .271.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rsterne on July 30, 2017, 07:33:31 PM
I admit to being confused by the 27.06" barometric pressure, at an altitude of 3925'.... If that was station pressure, then corrected to sea level it works out to 31.03", which is extremely high.... If that was corrected to sea level, it represents an extreme low, and when corrected to 3925' is a station pressure of only 23.08"....

Record worldwide barometric pressures are 25.7" on the low end, and 32" on the high end, corrected to sea level.... For California, the record low is 28.9", and the record high is 30.6", corrected to sea level.... Therefore, 27.06" at sea level is out of range of anything likely, but so is 31.03" on the high end....

Using 27.06" as the station (ambient) pressure gives the highest possible BC when corrected for standard conditions at sea level, so let's assume that is the case.... We then have two choices, we can use the average muzzle velocity and 50 yard velocity.... OR to be the most generous we can use the shot that had the least difference between the two velocities (17 fps), which is shot #1.... I used 95*F and 18% humidity, and 27.06" station (ambient) pressure....

Using the JBM Ballistics Calculator, I got the following results....

Average MV = 692 fps.... Average 50 yd. velocity = 672 fps....

Calculated BC (G1) = 0.182
Calculated BC (G7) = 0.107

Best case MV = 691 fps.... 50 yd. velocity = 674 fps....

Calculated BC (G1) = 0.215
Calculated BC (G7) = 0.126

Using ChairGun I got the following results....

Average MV = 692 fps.... Average 50 yd. velocity = 672 fps....

Calculated BC (G1) = 0.182
Calculated BC (G7) = 0.107

Best case MV = 691 fps.... 50 yd. velocity = 674 fps....

Calculated BC (G1) = 0.215
Calculated BC (G7) = 0.126

Note that the two calculators return identical results.... I feel that since the range of delta values is relatively small, using the best shot would be just as unfair as using the worst shot.... so if I was going to use a BC for this bullet, I would use the G1 model as being the closest representation of bullet shape, and would therefore use a BC (G1) of 0.182 at a velocity of about 700 fps.... If for some reason you wanted to use the G7 model, then the appropriate BC (G7) would be 0.107.... There is a potential SMALL discrepancy for the BC calculations because the claimed MV of the original shot was 986 fps, instead of the average in these tests of 692 fps.... but I would sincerely doubt if the Subsonic BC of this bullet was the 0.271 claimed by RCBS, even if that was the G1 number.... That is more likely a measurement of the BC (G) well into the Supersonic range that the bullet was originally intended for....

If we use those BCs, and correcting for the altitude of the shots of 7800 ft. and assuming a "normal" day in other respects.... and using the stated MV of 986 fps, we get the following at 1100 yds, assuming sighted at 100 yds. and a 10 mph crosswind....

BC (G1) = 0.182
Drop = 3283" (274 ft.)
Velocity = 549 fps
Energy = 103 FPE
Drift = 304" (25 ft.)

BC (G7) = 0.107
Drop= 3086" (257 ft.)
Velocity = 568 fps
Energy = 110 FPE
Drift = 274" (23 ft.)

These numbers are so far different from those originally posted (Drop = 2289", 217 FPE, and no correction for the wind).... that the original claims simply make no sense to me....

Bob
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 07:55:27 PM
Bob could be right about the BP reading but that is what my Kestral read so that is what I recorded.  No matter for this purpose anyway, the numbers are off by a magnitude, in fact, even further than before the BC testing was done from I thought it was.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 08:25:15 PM
 I was also struggling with the BP and ended up deleting a post because I couldnt make since of the correct BP......BUT.....No matter how you choose to adjust the numbers using BP or G1 OR G7 or even altitude (unless you live in the stratosphere) it makes no since its simply off that much!!! Cant be done as originally posted its that simple. Ok so lets get to whats really important at least to me and thats the numerous claims of a world record I hope this gets rectified and the record returned to its rightful owner at this time CARL AKA Rifle50.  Bobs numbers are exactly the same as the ones I came up with earlier and I double checked my math and can say without doubt Bob and Nick were correct from the start but its very important to get results from more than one entity and to have many eyes look it over. WORLD RECORDS should not be taken lightly this is how we push each other to new limits. Furthermore I see no reason to beat this dead horse unless their is something useful to be added to this thread. Opinions please.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 08:36:23 PM
I agree Travis.  I only want to hear from one guy and that is Dave.  He said silence speaks volumes in earlier posts...
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: oldpro on July 30, 2017, 08:45:21 PM
I agree Travis.  I only want to hear from one guy and that is Dave.  He said silence speaks volumes in earlier posts...
I would have to agree I certainly would like to hear from him also and If he thinks hes still correct in the Honor of this forum and our members I would agree to pay all shipping charges and provide insurance for Daves gun and a box of the ammo to be sent for testing to a third party tester.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: nielsenammo on July 30, 2017, 08:57:13 PM
That is more than generous.  I doubt he will show  his face here though.  The real issue is all the people show pick up the story from the big retailers who may not care if the info in false, I guess we will see.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rcpro88 on March 16, 2018, 10:20:25 AM
I do not get how David managed to get that Texan to shoot those 154 grain slugs 1107 yards. I've shot hundreds of those 154 grain hunters supply slugs through my .308 Texan and they seem to keyhole at 200 yards and even seemed to keyhole at 100 yards. I'm shooting the 154's at 960 fps to 900 fps with the same results - its just seems that a stock .308 Texan cannot stabilize such a slug at 200 yards, let alone 1107.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Alan on March 16, 2018, 10:50:36 AM
I've been watching this post for awhile, but I'm not too amazed Dave hasn't come back to support himself. However, in his defense...

In the mid 90s, I had a tight-necked, 22-250 AI built by Rose's Gun Shop in Denver. It has a 31 inch, 1:12, Shielan barrel, and a weighted McMillan stock for a total of 28 pounds—obviously a bench gun! It easily shot in the low ones using Nosler 55 grain ballistic tips.

In 1998, Northwest of Yuma Colorado, I shot a prairie dog with this gun at a laser-measured 1,710 yards! But... It took eleven shots to do the job, and even then I considered myself lucky! One of the five guys I was with, was post about 250 yards to the east and north of my position. He acted as an artillery spotter of sorts. After missing so many times, I literally twisted the elevation knob an unknown number of clicks. The ensuing round hit just to the prairie dog's right about 10 feet. From his spotting position, my friend Bill told me (via FRS radio) that the distance was correct. The last attempt hit the prairie dog dead center. Personally, as I said, I was just plain lucky. It is sort of like shooting suppressive fire from an M1A1 .50 Browning—while you're wasting ammo, you're nonetheless hoping you'll hit some of the enemy down range.

As a result, I'm just not impressed about shooting airguns at extended yardage, whether we're shooing metal plates or water jugs. It is, after all, a hint an miss scenario which proves very little.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Steelhead on March 16, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
Well said, and good analogy. Your prairie dog shot is amazing none-the-less, but at least you temper it with a dose of reality. You didn't just go 'oh, there's one' and shoot it offhand. The above mentioned scenario of the world record somewhat gives the impression of walking out to the bench, doing the math, turning the scope a few clicks, and knocking down steel at insane range. Those of us with some experience know this is not true; all you have to do is look at Rifle50's videos to know that shooting at that distance requires a lot of hotrodding and skill to say the least.

I think exception is taken when the proof isn't available whether using either video or an incorrect ballistic formula, and also that the underlying premise that 'if you use this ammo and buy my services that YOU TOO can shoot like this' which is b.s. and unethical advertising.   
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rcpro88 on March 16, 2018, 06:59:40 PM
Honestly, when I bought my .308 Texan, there was barely any information/reviews on forums, youtube etc that were actually customer reviews and not just retailers holding the Texan and saying its an accurate air rifle. The home page on Hunters Supply's website which states the .308 Texan can shoot their cheap 154 grain SP ammo 1107 yards. Frankly this was one of the things I read that persuaded me the .308 Texan would be a great gun for long range target shooting. Also I could shoot all day without spending a lot on ammo when compared to a powder burner. I think its unethical for Hunters Supply to not supply all the CORRECT details/facts. But at the same time, you can call up Rachel at Airforce Airguns and she will tell you all day that the .308, .357 and the .457 Texan will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards out of the box...
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Steelhead on March 17, 2018, 04:28:03 AM
1" out of the box isn't a big stretch and frankly 100 yards is a chip shot for the Texan. I too bought this gun last June when there was little to no info on it, for the same reasons as you: cheap to shoot, long range targets, etc.

I can't speak for the .357 or the .45. but the .308 needs a lot of attention on the tune wheel. Newbies like me were led to believe that the tuning wheel is just a 'fine tune' and only needed when accuracy/power plateaus. That's why there are no numbers on the wheel; Airforce didn't want people obsessing on it like they do on the Condor. The difference between the middle of the tuning wheel setting and max power is about 200 fps. That's a lot, and the difference at distance is staggering obviously. 

I say this because I think that the .308 is definitely capable of 1" groups at 100 yards out of the box IF you have the setting right and are using the correct bullet weight for that setting. And couple that with the fact that there was/is very little accurate info from either the factory or customers it made for a lot of guess work. In the airgun shooting circles there seems to be a love/hate relationship with the Texan. Guys that are really into the minutia of power/accuracy, long shot strings, and quiet sub-100 yard guns don't like it. Too much boom and not enough consistent results. I'm a west coast guy who hunts blacktails with powder burners so long range is just the name of the game most of the time. The novelty of a long range air gun just appeals to me.

Keep the barrel clean, turn the power up on any bullets bigger than 134, and a Mad Dog stock doesn't hurt either. If anything it makes the gun a million times more comfortable to shoot and that itself helps the accuracy (not to mention the physical elements the stock provides) my accuracy also improves when I get off of the bipod and use my shooting station (custom built) or bags.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rcpro88 on March 19, 2018, 03:40:11 PM
Once I'm done machining/building my Texan for long range shooting to 800-1000 yards, I will start a new thread in the "Garage" section with my modifications/reasoning behind them so others will know what actually needs to be done to a .308 Texan to get it to shoot 1000 yards.

Keep in mind that David has a 4500 psi upgrade on that .308 Texan at the time/mad dog stock as well as the limb saver. Matt from R&L confirmed this.
Kinda goes without saying but either an adjustable or fixed MOA rail will be needed to give the scope the cant it needs since the pellet will drop a lot more than any powder burner.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2018, 08:23:34 AM
I have read all this and find it quite entertaining, stating a "world record" may have set you up for criticism, I'm sure you never planned on that.

This is tame compared to the guy who caught Dottie in California.  A world record beating large mouth bass.  He actually caught the fish and then decided to release it because it was foul hooked and would not count.  He's received death threats, had his tires slashed, and had inflated stories and some out right lies about what an evil person he circulated as fact.  He has STATED he wishes he had never caught it.  People who have never met him will state WITH AUTHORITY that he deserves what he got because he is an "evil" person with horns and a tail who eats children for breakfast. 

Any time you claim a record people will trash you, and often the people you think would most respect your accomplishment.  If any little detail about your account doesn't add up exactly perfect (TO THEM) they use it as an excuse to trash everything about you and your story.  These guys are being down right cordial compared to some of the sh!t I have seen. 

P.S.  Bob.  I could hit my ProChrono at 200 yards too.  That's why I don't do it.  LOL.

P.P.S.  I will probably never own another Chrony.  I've had two.  Neither worked worth a darned and I got ZERO RESPONSE when after struggling for months I tried to contact them.  I am aware Chrony fans may have had better experiences.   I didn't.  Them's  the facts.
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on March 20, 2018, 08:30:21 AM
I have read all this and find it quite entertaining, stating a "world record" may have set you up for criticism, I'm sure you never planned on that.

This is tame compared to the guy who caught Dottie in California.  A world record beating large mouth bass.  He actually caught the fish and then decided to release it because it was foul hooked and would not count.  He's received death threats, had his tires slashed, and had inflated stories and some out right lies about what an evil person he circulated as fact.  He has STATED he wishes he had never caught it.  People who have never met him will state WITH AUTHORITY that he deserves what he got because he is an "evil" person with horns and a tail who eats children for breakfast. 

Any time you claim a record people will trash you, and often the people you think would most respect your accomplishment.  If any little detail about your account doesn't add up exactly perfect (TO THEM) they use it as an excuse to trash everything about you and your story.  These guys are being down right cordial compared to some of the sh!t I have seen. 

P.S.  Bob.  I could hit my ProChrono at 200 yards too.  That's why I don't do it.  LOL.

P.P.S.  I will probably never own another Chrony.  I've had two.  Neither worked worth a darned and I got ZERO RESPONSE when after struggling for months I tried to contact them.  I am aware Chrony fans may have had better experiences.   I didn't.  Them's  the facts.

Language Bob...????
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2018, 08:42:21 AM
Sorry.  I promise to never call you guys cordial again. 
I forgot how GTA like it had gotten here and why I quit posting for a long time. 
Title: Re: Texan 308 world recored
Post by: rcpro88 on March 20, 2018, 04:03:28 PM
Bob La Londe,

I'm not criticizing David for not having a video. I believe David shot the Texan 1107 yards. I know he probably walked the Texan up to 1107 yards, ie: he didn't sight in at 100 yards then adjust the scope for 1107 yards, take 3 shots and then that's the group. He probably worked up to 1107 yards.
I'm just curious how that .308 was tuned, how much psi was used etc...He posted a pic and some words. However, Texan owners like myself who were influenced to go with a .308 Texan over the .457 Texan or a .257 condor/talon because of the article want to know what he did with his .308 Texan to get the results he did - because a stock .308 Texan won't do that.

People just want information so they can get their own air rifes out to 1000 yards. No one is out for blood.