Author Topic: A Secret That Just Keeps Going  (Read 2674 times)

steveoh

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A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« on: February 24, 2016, 09:54:49 AM »
Just visited one of my normal airgun haunts, and see the Flying Dragon PCP Failure still being danced around. Mike is long gone from there now, and just makes the one sided discussion all that more confusing, and confounding. There is information being held close to someone's chest, and not shared with the community. Why? I'd like to know what in the hell is wrong with a little bit of sunshine? Are all the parties afraid of lawsuits? Public shame?

Shaking head...

Steveoh


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ezman604

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2016, 11:59:56 AM »
Then call Mike and ask him yourself.

mobilemail

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2016, 02:06:38 PM »
Best answer ever. Direct information is the only reliable information. And sometimes even that falters...
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rsterne

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2016, 04:27:35 PM »
NO "secrets", at least not by me.... Some of the FD-PCP tubes that have been produced have threads that look like they were chewed on during manufacture, and are way undersized.... Couple that with oversized receivers, and you have a recipe for disaster, IMO....

How about this?.... If you'd like one for your gun, there are a few available, I'm sure I can hook you up....  ::)



IMO, Mike dropped the ball by not jumping right in at the beginning and determining what the problem was.... admitting there are some tubes out there with problems, and asking guys to send them back for measurement and/or replacement if necessary.... All I have heard from him are Crickets....  ::)

As far as the GTA is concerned, yes we have been way too slow in coming up with recommendations.... There are a team of guys involved, I am one of them, and the other guys actually have to work for a living.... There are plans in place to test to destruction some of the poorer examples of tube-to-receiver fit, but that hasn't happened yet.... It will, with time.... I posted a set of thread tolerances on the GTA a VERY long time ago, for anybody to check their gun against.... At the time I hoped Mike would either confirm them or come up with a different set.... Again, Crickets.... Whose responsibility is it to address these things, anyway?....

Bottom line is, if you are convinced your FD-PCP is safe, go ahead and use it.... I checked my son's, and it is barely within tolerances, so it is depressurized, out of use at present, and I plan to change it to a through-tube setup to eliminate the threads completely.... It's probably OK for 1500 psi, but no way would I use more.... If you haven't checked your FD-PCP, to ascertain if the threads are within tolerance, then you have nobody to blame but yourself (and/or Mike) if there is a problem down the road, IMO.... The information is out there, it's up to you if you want to make use of it or not....

As far as using more than CO2 pressures (ie more than the 1500 psi stated on Mike's website), I wouldn't.... QVTom did an FEA of the end cap, and the flange that retains the plug inside the tube is reaching or surpassing it's allowable safety margins at 1800 psi.... It's OK for CO2 pressures, but should never have been recommended for 2000 psi (or more), as has happened.... The valve screws, likewise.... They failed at 6000 psi, so using the 3.5:1 standard safety margin that makes it a 1700 psi gun at best, if everything else is made to tolerance.... So we have two compelling reasons already not to fill beyond 1500 psi.... and yet I keep reading about guys being told (recently) it's OK.... Really?.... I sure as heck wouldn't ever use a regulated HPA setup on one without a 1.8K burst disc fitted.... which limits the setpoint pressure to 1500 psi.... Do you see a theme happening here?....

You want to know one of the prime reasons nobody wants to speak out on this?.... It's because Mike has such a cheering section.... so many people that think he can do no wrong.... that we get tired of being dumped on.... After a while you wonder if it is worth the effort to try and keep people safe, you know?.... It's easier to just sit back and shut up.... and let the chips fall where they may....

Bob
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:30:33 PM by rsterne »
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steveoh

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2016, 05:05:52 PM »
Thank you Bob. This is what I would have expected.  The thread(s) is/are long and at times tedious to read at GTA.

In a nutshell, the FD-PCP air guns are sketchy at best, and everyone should probably park them until they have been deemed safe by someone qualified to check them out. 

AND...

I see no way in how GTA is responsible. GTA has stepped up and warned folks that these (some?) guns are showing problems.

But the Guy who built these things should step up.

Has Mike made explanation to the leaders of GTA, and just not spoken publicly?  (tis a secret maybe)

If he has, and GTA has more information, shouldn't GTA be forthcoming?

If GTA has no more information, then perhaps GTA should say so, and direct all further inquiries about the FD-PCP to Flying Dragon Airguns, aka Mike Melick.

I've got no bone to pick with GTA or Mike Melick. Heck I don't own a FD-PCP. I do own a QB-79 I got from Mike, and I like it just fine, and when I had some seals crap out on me, I sent the rifle back for fixing and he did so and did not charge me. That was awesome service. GTA has been and continues to be a fantastic community of airgun fanatics.

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up here, as I have obviously picked at a few scabs.

In conclusion (or was that contusion - ow) here's a little testimonial over at Mike's site:

Quote
"There is no doubt that Mike is good with them Co2's. Mike and I go back quite a ways and you just can't find a guy that is more honest, good to deal with or that will do more to help a fellow airgunner, especially with a QB78 than Mike. He is good at his craft and knows them QB's as well as or better than anybody I know. Also, you get much more than you pay for. As most of you know, I don't usually direct to or promote different companies or individuals publicly because of business ethics but Mike is an exception. If any of you are considering a QB, see Mike either first or see him last, but see Mike, cuz you won't go wrong or be sorry."

Bob Werner, AKA Charlie Da Tuna.

I hope I have not annoyed folks too badly. I just like to hear the truth.

Steveoh

NO "secrets", at least not by me.... Some of the FD-PCP tubes that have been produced have threads that look like they were chewed on during manufacture, and are way undersized.... Couple that with oversized receivers, and you have a recipe for disaster, IMO....

How about this?.... If you'd like one for your gun, there are a few available, I'm sure I can hook you up....  ::)



IMO, Mike dropped the ball by not jumping right in at the beginning and determining what the problem was.... admitting there are some tubes out there with problems, and asking guys to send them back for measurement and/or replacement if necessary.... All I have heard from him are Crickets....  ::)

As far as the GTA is concerned, yes we have been way too slow in coming up with recommendations.... There are a team of guys involved, I am one of them, and the other guys actually have to work for a living.... There are plans in place to test to destruction some of the poorer examples of tube-to-receiver fit, but that hasn't happened yet.... It will, with time.... I posted a set of thread tolerances on the GTA a VERY long time ago, for anybody to check their gun against.... At the time I hoped Mike would either confirm them or come up with a different set.... Again, Crickets.... Whose responsibility is it to address these things, anyway?....

Bottom line is, if you are convinced your FD-PCP is safe, go ahead and use it.... I checked my son's, and it is barely within tolerances, so it is depressurized, out of use at present, and I plan to change it to a through-tube setup to eliminate the threads completely.... It's probably OK for 1500 psi, but no way would I use more.... If you haven't checked your FD-PCP, to ascertain if the threads are within tolerance, then you have nobody to blame but yourself (and/or Mike) if there is a problem down the road, IMO.... The information is out there, it's up to you if you want to make use of it or not....

As far as using more than CO2 pressures (ie more than the 1500 psi stated on Mike's website), I wouldn't.... QVTom did an FEA of the end cap, and the flange that retains the plug inside the tube is reaching or surpassing it's allowable safety margins at 1800 psi.... It's OK for CO2 pressures, but should never have been recommended for 2000 psi (or more), as has happened.... The valve screws, likewise.... They failed at 6000 psi, so using the 3.5:1 standard safety margin that makes it a 1700 psi gun at best, if everything else is made to tolerance.... So we have two compelling reasons already not to fill beyond 1500 psi.... and yet I keep reading about guys being told (recently) it's OK.... Really?.... I sure as heck wouldn't ever use a regulated HPA setup on one without a 1.8K burst disc fitted.... which limits the setpoint pressure to 1500 psi.... Do you see a theme happening here?....

You want to know one of the prime reasons nobody wants to speak out on this?.... It's because Mike has such a cheering section.... so many people that think he can do no wrong.... that we get tired of being dumped on.... After a while you wonder if it is worth the effort to try and keep people safe, you know?.... It's easier to just sit back and shut up.... and let the chips fall where they may....

Bob
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Motorhead

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2016, 05:32:15 PM »
Was a $100 gun ... sold as a "Project" gun for fiddle around types.
Honestly when receiving mine and seeing how friggen cheap the receiver was made, lose sloppy fit & finish internally, really poor quality fasteners and such ... in a package that on the outside LOOKED GOOD  8)

For anyone to take em back ... pay for retrofit & postage would be financially better off to to give refunds on there purchase upon PROOF OF GUNS DESTRUCTION !

Gun is a piece of shit, sure they can shoot good, are light weight and handy little rifles.
End of the day .... EVERYONE got what they paid for, a throw away rifle.

Just unfortunate we're dealing with HPA in this case ... being akin to selling folks Hand Grenades with the safety pin already removed  :P :P :P :P

JMO ... nuttin more
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ezman604

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2016, 05:46:45 PM »
GTA HAS been forthcoming on everything GTA knows. We have no horse in this race but a responsibility to the community. We reported what we deemed was important. All we have to go on is what we have seen and heard. We have no insider information we have not shared but still there are folks that want to think we are holding information close to our chest in order to protect a valued vendor. Mike is a great guy and I certainly thought of him as a friend. I asked Mike to take the lead on this, that GTA has a responsibility to inform the community. He went silent and said there was no problem, he had only heard from one customer. And this one "exploding" airgun.
He paid out of his pocket to have forensic metallurgy testing on what was left of the airgun in question. There can be NO solid results without the missing cylinder. But since Mike paid out of his pocket, he will not release this report to the public. He stated that if anyone wanted to see the results of the test, two things would need to be done. First, the person would pay for the report, to help defer his out of pocket cost for a test that did not need to be run. And second, the person requesting the report would sign a release that this information would not be shared or used in any liability attempt aimed at him. The test showed strike damage to the metal but again, there is no way to determine when and how this strike took place. Only speculation....and everyone has some of that they are willing to share.
This is how Mike chooses to handle the issue that he says is not an issue. I know I've heard of more than one owner suspecting theirs.
BUT, Mike stated that if any owners felt their air reservoirs were improper fit or even possibly inferior, he would swap them for free. My question was, WHERE is this information? It is not mine nor GTA's place to broadcast his statement, he needs/has to do that himself.
Yes, he fears coming forward with any statement would open him to liability and a possible law suit. I understand and respect that too. There are folks out there that just do not care who or what Mike is about and would sooner lynch him than take a breath. There are some lousy folks out there that live for things like this. Mike would give you the shirt off his back and not expect or accept anything for it. He gives more to this community than he takes in. We need many more just like him!!! This sport/hobby would be a far better one with more like him in it.
He puts his heart and soul into his work and it shows. He turns out some fantastic airguns that folks can afford. He brought the FD-PCP out to folks in an effort to make HPA affordable to more folks. I'm not behind how he did it though and how he is handling the POSSIBLE issue. Oh well, can't do much more than I have done already.
We have a team of very knowledgeable folks volunteering to come up with a safety checklist to help determine if these airguns are indeed safe or if they need retrofit. There is a very small amount of them that may need the tubes upgraded. But having just one unknown out there is TOO many!!!
Like I said, GTA has absolutely no stake in this whatsoever. And no hidden agenda. We have a responsibility to our community to inform ANY time we find or hear of even a POSSIBLE safety issue. And we also have a responsibility to protect vendors from a lynch mob mentality. So we are stuck in the middle and trying to do right by all. A tough place to be I might add.
The inspection checklist has to be right the first time. And has to be usable by ALL levels of user. It will be published as soon as it is deemed ready. Until then, we did ask that folks drain, unload and park their FD-PCP. Or take it to a qualified person to check it out. I'll say I believe in these airguns so much, one has been inspected (twice) and will go up in a raffle very soon.
I hope this helps explain a few things and relieves the anxiety of a few.
Now, I guess I'll C&P this on GTA too.   
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 03:42:58 AM by ezman604 »

Monkeydad1969

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2016, 07:15:51 PM »
Thanks Dave for your input.  Hopefully this will soon be resolved and hopefully Mike will be able to bring something to this discussion. 

Joe
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steveoh

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2016, 07:29:04 PM »
Thank you Dave for stepping up and explaining things more clearly and in detail.  I have a much clearer understanding now.

I greatly appreciate what you do, and understand the work involved in keeping GTA up and running, and keeping folks as happy as they are. It is an impossible job, and yet you do it.

As a small token of my gratitude I just donated $20 to the GTA. Will continue to donate and be a part of that great community!

Steveoh
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critter

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2016, 08:00:59 PM »
Mike is a great guy just a small 1 man operation as much as he would want to he does not have the resources to take all the rifles back. 



I would just retire them... the rifles were cheap to begin with heck most spend that much on an order of pellets

I was at the scene when the one failed ...trust me it's not worth the risk to keep using one...in fact I am not even comfortable with the design on C02....nowhere near as robust as the QB platform
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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2016, 08:36:00 PM »
 I personally will not tune a Chinese made air rifle due to the fact If anything happens afterwards I could be liable. Im not saying ALL Chinese air rifles are garbage but many are and leave alot to be desired. I also would rather have a well made gun that costs more than try and save a few bucks and wonder what if! The GTA and The Guild are two of the few places you can actually get answers that are not moderated out by the higher powers of the forums. Keep up the good work DEZ and Ill do my best also.

sixshootertexan

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2016, 08:51:09 PM »
I have only made 1 or 2 post on this subject. My only suggestion is that if an owner of the rifle in question is in doubt disassemble the rifle and have a qualified inspector check the threads. Most of the owners of this rifle have nothing more than a pair of calipers. Calipers are not a good way to check threads. Yes I know you can check the ID (minor dia.of the internal threads)and OD (major Dia of the external threads) and that should give a some indication of what's going on. I know a couple of the people posting on the threads are machinist. I've been machining for 30+ years, I've seen a lot of crazy stuff. Just because a major OD is slightly undersize does not mean the threads are bad. It's more about the pitch dia. and thread form. Bob's picture is a great example of bad thread form. Split and torn threads. My concern is that some one may take the threads specs listed and think their threads are good because the OD is within spec not knowing the thread form is bad. Some times thread form cannot be seen with the naked eye. The threading tool may not have been square to the part, unless you have a good thread pitch checker or a comparator you may not see it. I could go on and on about threads but I won't.

So lets be safe and either have the rifles checked or junk them.

Ricky
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oldpro

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Re: A Secret That Just Keeps Going
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 09:09:06 PM »
 I would toss it after making sure no one could repair it to work again. These guns have no business in anyones hands period. Mike sells some fine guns now that make this one look like what it is.