Author Topic: NOE Pellet Testing  (Read 765 times)

rsterne

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NOE Pellet Testing
« on: April 29, 2019, 06:11:00 PM »
I tested four types of NOE pellets today, all four weights of each.... In all cases the flat based solid pellets exhibited spiraling which blew open the groups at 50 yards.... The hollow based pellets shot well, with the lightest one the best, and the others weights pretty close....  This is consistent with the .25 cal NOE Magnum pellets I tested last summer.... Other guns and barrels may deliver different results.... but I think I am seeing a pattern with the NOE pellets.... All groups were shot at 50 yards from a bench with bipod and rear bag....

.22 cal Hunter - 19.7 & 21.3 gr. shot almost as good as the 1" group shot by the 18.1 gr. JSB Heavies and better than the 25.4 gr. Redesigned Monsters at 1.4".... The 22.6 gr. Hunters were worse (over 2" group), and the 25.3 gr. Hunters with the flat base were useless, only 3 hit the target.... Barrel is a LW....

.25 cal Hunter - 26.7 gr. consistently equaled the 25.4 gr. JSB Kings at under 1", and the 28.2 & 29.4 gr. were very close, as good or better than the 34 gr. JSB Heavies at 1.3".... The 33.1 gr. Flat Based solids were under 2" at 50 yd. which is the best any of the solids I have tested shot.... but they were low and right, so likely starting to spiral....

.25 cal Target - The 22.2 gr. 23.6 gr. and 24.3 gr. Wadcutters shot between 2-3" at 50 yards, and the 28.0 gr. flat-based wadcutters were dismal, only 3 hit the target.... I was not happy with any of the wadcutters in my LW barrel at 50 yards.... It remains to test them shooting in the 600s at closer range, as most wadcutters are useless shot in the 800-900s at this distance....

.30 cal Hunter - The 45.7 gr. equaled the performance of the 44.8 gr. JSBs at less than 1".... 4 of the 5 shots with the 48.4 gr. were in about the same size, but I pulled one shot.... The 49.6 gr. were under 1.5", which is what the 50.2 gr. JSBs shoot, but the 57.0 gr. flat based solids were over 2" and spiraling low and right... Interestingly, that was a smaller group than the Predator Polymags I also tested today, at 3".... The barrel is a 26" twist TJ's.... Chalk up one more barrel that doesn't like the Preds…. One more thing of interest.... The 45.7 gr. NOEs shot to the same POI as the 44.8 gr. JSBs at 50 yards, but had 1/2 MilDot less drop at 100 yards.... That should, in theory, mean a higher BC....

I am very pleased with the results with the NOE Hunter cast pellets…. The best of them rival the JSBs, which shoot the best of all the pellets I tried previously in all three of these guns.... The heavier NOEs are right in there with other brands of pellets I have previously tested in these barrels, and better than many.... but I have yet to find a gun that likes the flat based solids.... The HB NOE Hunters are certainly worth trying when you are doing pellet comparisons of various brands to see what your PCP likes.... 

Bob
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 07:39:53 AM by rsterne »


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steveoh

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2019, 07:59:59 PM »
Thanks for sharing your findings Bob. I have wondered about the potential of using solid base diabolo pellets. I reckon we now know!
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Alan

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 04:36:57 AM »
Good information to be sure.

In my experience, the only pellets which group well, are all round-nosed ones. Wad cutters shot from my .25 caliber Cobra, for example, won't group even at 10 yards! It is almost like shooting a shotgun!

I get about the same performance from PolyMags, but they don't fall apart until about 50 yards. When the majority of your pest shots are between 60 and 90 yards, you might as well be shooting a shotgun here too!

As a side light... Bob, I know you're working on some terminal ballistic results in gel, clay, or whatever. I'm looking forward to that writeup. In the meantime, I have been doing some of my own research with respect to wounds caused by the various shaped projectiles. One of the "treatises" on this subject appears as Appendix B in the second addition of Vincent Di Maio's book, Gunshot Wounds. If you're interested in reading the book, I'll be happy to mail it up to you. It is a bit gory is some respects due to the subject matter. However, the information is solidly referenced, albeit 20 years old.
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Alan

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rsterne

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 07:07:59 AM »
Thanks, Alan.... but my upcoming article for HAM will be the simple, Cole's notes version.... It is indeed an interesting subject, but the variables are so vast I will only be able to scratch the surface (pardon the pun)….

Bob
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Alan

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 09:30:46 AM »
You're pardoned!

It "IS" a vast subject, and one I believe is oft misrepresented by manufacturers of ammunition. One argument has to do with hollow points being better than round nosed ones. But if you believe in the forensic evidence presented by Mr. Di Maio, that isn't a given, especially so with sub-sonic projectiles.
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Alan

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rsterne

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2019, 04:43:40 PM »
I tested the .22 cal Magnum Hunters today in my Regulated Disco Double.... It is tuned to shoot the 25.4 gr. Monsters at 960 fps.... The wind got really silly, but I saw the same trend, the lighter pellets (23.2 gr. and 24.6 gr.) shot the best, the 26.3 gr. with the shallowest base cavity were significantly worse, and the flat based 29.1 gr. solids were hopeless.... There may be some barrels out there that will shoot the solid pellets, but I haven't found any yet....

Incidently the Redesigned Monsters shot a bit better than the old cylindrical ones, and also hit slightly higher on the target at both 50 and 100 yards....

Bob
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 04:45:52 PM by rsterne »
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rsterne

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2019, 04:33:20 PM »
I continued my NOE pellet testing today.... I tested the .25 Magnum Hunters in my .25 cal regulated BRod, which is tuned to shoot the 34 gr. JSB Heavies at 950 fps from its LW Polygonal 17.7" twist barrel.... Once again, the flat-based solid NOE pellets were useless, they were beginning to spiral at 50 yards, and you couldn't keep them on the paper at 100.... In addition to the JSB and NOE pellets I also tested some 36 gr. Daystate pellets.... The JSBs were the best, shooting a 3/4" 5-shot group with 4 pellets touching at 50 yards.... but the Daystates were the worst, even worse than the solid NOEs, only 2 shots hit the target at 50 yards, I estimate the group was about 5".... The best of the NOE pellets was the mid-weight 37.0 gr. at about 1", very close to the JSB Heavies.... Next best was the 35.0 gr. NOE at about 1.5" and the 38.5 gr. was starting to open up at about 2.5".... When I was sighting in at 100 yards, the JSB Heavies put 4 shots in a inch, but then the wind came up and when I tried to repeat that I got a group 1/2" high but 4" wide, extending downwind.... The 35.0 gr. and 37.0 gr. NOE pellets were about 2" groups, and printed higher at 100 yards than the JSBs.... They also printed higher at 50 yards, so the different POI is likely barrel harmonics....

I also tested the 41.7 gr. BBT FN bullets and the 39.5 gr. HP version as well.... These were cast in the larger size 0.253/0.255" mould, and shot as cast, so they are probably too large for best accuracy in this barrel.... They were a little snug on chambering, and shot about 2" groups at 50 yards.... I am confident that properly sized they would improve a lot....

I also took out my new .357 cal regulated BRod today.... It has a 27" long TJ's barrel of 26" twist, with a 5/8" OD high-modulas CF sleeve on it.... This gun is tuned to shoot 77.6 gr. JSBs at 900 fps, and would put 5 into 1" at 50 yards, which with such large pellets is basically a ragged hole.... This gun shot all the NOE pellets well, with the heavy-weight 89.8 gr. the best, tighter than the JSBs, with 5 shots into 3/4".... The 79.6 gr. NOEs were just over 1", and the 84.8 gr. NOEs shot 1-1/4" (still a great group) but the 99.3 gr. solids opened up to 2".... I also shot some 80.7 gr. EPP-UGs from an Accurate mould, and at 50 yards they shot as tight as the 77.6 gr. JSBs, but at 100 yards they opened up to 5".... I also had some of the newer 81.0 gr. JSBs, and they shot a 1.5" group at 50 yards, not quite as good as the hollow-based NOEs.... All the hollow-based NOE pellets and both weights of JSBs all shot about the same at 100 yards, with about 2-2.5" groups, but the 99 gr. solids were starting to spiral, and grouped like the EPP-UGs at about twice that size....

I am still seeing the same trend with all NOE pellets, I have yet to find a barrel that likes the flat-based solid pellets.... Most guns seem to prefer the lighter pellets, but this .35 cal liked the heavy ones, so it is worth trying all the different HB pins when casting NOE pellets to see what your gun likes.... If anyone gets the solids to work, please let us know....

Bob
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 08:00:41 PM by rsterne »
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rsterne

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 08:51:53 PM »
Today I tested the NOE .30 cal Magnum Hunter pellets in my .30 cal Disco Double.... This gun has a 26" twist TJ's barrel and a Cothran valve, and I was shooting it tethered, tuned to 960 fps with the lightest 59 gr. NOE pellets.... I tested the 59 gr., 62 gr. and 65 gr. hollow base pellets, having determined previously that the 73 gr. flat based pellets were useless.... I also shot some of the 50 gr. JSBs for comparison, but to be fair they were over 1000 fps.... The 65 gr. was shooting about 910 fps and the 62 gr. about 940....

At 50 yards, I got the following for 5-shot groups....

50 gr. JSB.... 1.80"
59 gr. NOE.... 1.13"
62 gr. NOE.... 1.65"
65 gr. NOE.... 0.88

However, when I tested at 100 yards, the 65 gr. pellets spiraled wildly out of control, only 3 hit the target paper.... So, even though they shot the best at 50 yard, they were useless at 100.... The best groups at 100 yards were with the lightest NOE pellet, the 59 gr....

Bob
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Alan

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2019, 04:42:46 AM »
I guess I'm really not surprised at your numbers. If I draw anything from this, it is simply that proper tuning is an important attribute for the type of projectile being used. This "tuning" must also include twist rates, as well as velocity.
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rsterne

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2019, 08:03:24 AM »
There is no way I can be sure, of course.... but my guess is that the CG position is what is affecting the spiraling tendency.... Since all the pellets are cast in the same mould cavities, and only the base pins are changed, the external shape is the same, with only the weight and the CG position varying.... As you decrease the depth of the base pin to cast a heavier pellet, the CG moves back as the weight increases....

So far, I have not found a gun that liked the flat based pellets.... I didn't call for the flat based pins in my design, Al added that to give the customers the ability to try it, and to cast a much heavier pellet as a result.... It appears to have been an experiment that didn't work, likely why we have not seen that feature used in any other Diabolo pellets.... Some guns shoot the heaviest hollow-based pellet well at 50 yards, but in some the accuracy really falls off at longer ranges as the pellet develops a noticeable spiral.... From the testing I have done so far, at the longer ranges the light and medium pellets seem to be the most accurate....

I am pleased that the NOE cast pellets shoot well in a variety of guns.... Proper casting technique to insure proper fill-out of the skirts is critical, but once you find a system that works for you, it seems that the NOEs are worth trying.... Like any pellet, your gun will tell you what it likes, of course.... In addition, with the Meplat design they really hit hard when hunting.... Interestingly, you can really tell the difference in the holes in a paper target as well, compared to a round nosed JSB (which they otherwise resemble)…. The holes from the NOE pellets are both larger in diameter, and sharper around the edges....

Bob
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 08:05:45 AM by rsterne »
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caniborrowsomeammo

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2019, 12:11:09 PM »
I'm not knowledgeable in such matters, and I thank you Bob for the testing of these projectiles.
 But I was wondering, since the 65 grain shoots well at 50, but not at 100, do you think it could be that it needs a faster twist to keep it stabilized at the slower speed it is going past 50???
It is my understanding that the further the projectile travels, the faster the velocity slows, but spin doesn't slow as fast due to less drag on the spin vs drag on the projectile as a whole.

Ballistics, ugh! I'll just keep Strelok to guide my shots. :) 
Buncha BB guns that I don't get to shoot as much as I like. Grinding out a living on the farm.

rsterne

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Re: NOE Pellet Testing
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2019, 06:42:56 PM »
Just the opposite, the spiraling is a sign of Dynamic Instability, which is generally worse when the spin rate is too fast.... As it travels downrange it sheds velocity faster than RPM, so past 50 yards it acts like it was fired through a barrel with a faster twist rate.... The cure for spiraling is almost always less velocity or a slower twist rate.... It is doing this....



Bob
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