The AirGun Guild

General Category => General Airgun Forum Discussion => Topic started by: Whitney1 on January 10, 2016, 09:49:39 PM

Title: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Whitney1 on January 10, 2016, 09:49:39 PM
 Ive never been booted from any site ever so I was a little surprised when I went to log in and couldnt then found in my email I had been banned!!!! For what you might ask? For sharing a link in a post to another website I visit....Can you believe that crap. Man talk about over reacting and total NAZI enforcement wow. Just venting moving on now.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on January 10, 2016, 10:07:32 PM
Wow.  That's great...not really.  :-[  At least you're here.

Joe
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ajshoots on January 10, 2016, 11:07:36 PM
Sorry you were banned. Your post and link are still up though?
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 11, 2016, 09:02:32 AM
Details ?..... site, post ?
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ajshoots on January 11, 2016, 09:22:50 AM
I believe for this posts but not positive? http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/new-way-of-tunning-going-viral-ssg-mod/
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Whitney1 on January 11, 2016, 10:56:14 AM
 My posts were modified to not include the links but I am able to log on today so I guess Ill just blow it off its not like I dont have better places to go.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Keyser Soze on January 12, 2016, 05:46:04 PM
I got banned too.  Seems like the list is growing...
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: dman1114 on January 12, 2016, 06:28:10 PM
Cool another Thread about getting kicked off Airgunnation     ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: steveoh on January 12, 2016, 09:22:29 PM
What exactly does one have to do or say to get kicked off? ::)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Motorhead on January 12, 2016, 09:53:32 PM
HELLO TRAVIS and fellow members  8)

Where the heck is the Welcome new members page  :P :P :P

New ... now thats funny
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Whitney1 on January 12, 2016, 10:00:47 PM
 Yea your new like Moses lol. Glad you made it. Thats a good idea though Scott we are certainly taking any and all suggestions. this site will be built by the members suggestions. Super glad to have you Here.   So you didnt get stumped by the Crosman question like some others here No Names Mentioned LOL
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: caniborrowsomeammo on January 12, 2016, 11:05:45 PM
Hey, how long till I get banned HERE? ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Motorhead on January 12, 2016, 11:09:32 PM
Hey, how long till I get banned HERE? ;D

What instrument you play ? .... we can work on forming this Banned thing you speak of.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: caniborrowsomeammo on January 13, 2016, 12:45:44 AM
Hey, how long till I get banned HERE? ;D

What instrument you play ? .... we can work on forming this Banned thing you speak of.
Been playing the Flex lately, but pulled out the BSA to strum a tune on a sweet Euro dove this afternoon.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 13, 2016, 02:28:32 AM
What exactly does one have to do or say to get kicked off? ::)

I got banned too yesterday from AirgunNation,

I've seen some badly run Forums in the past, but this one ? ...ho boy  ::) ::) ::)

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: SundanceKid on January 13, 2016, 03:27:24 AM
Hi guys. I haven't been banned cause I really don't say very much or very often. But, looking at the names on the roster, I'd say "What a Banned of Monkeys" "Where the List is Long and Distinguished" LOL

Denny
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Crosman999 on January 13, 2016, 09:16:33 AM
I love Airguns more than anything,some of you on here are my friends! We are all a group of people who may not normally mix,the airgun topic brings us together. I've been called stupid on other forums and all kinds of nonsense,my point is I'm still here because this is my life! It's a good life at that. 8)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: mobilemail on January 13, 2016, 08:03:33 PM
I haven't been thrown out of anywhere (yet), although I did once get a stern email when the picture didn't display correctly in my classified ad.

Is that serious enough to hang out with you buncha evildoers???
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Whitney1 on January 13, 2016, 09:01:23 PM
Probably lol. You can  hide over here with us misfits ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rsterne on January 19, 2016, 10:11:49 PM
Banned?.... I gotta Tenor Sax in the basement !!!

Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Alan on January 20, 2016, 02:49:54 PM
Well, me too in essence because I used the word "silencer"! What I am really sorry for, I send those folks over at GTA $50 about a month ago. I'll guess I'll snd this site $100!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: steveoh on January 20, 2016, 03:37:25 PM
I've never understood the reason for not even mentioning the word silencer. Last I heard, we have this thing called freedom of speech. As long as you aren't threatening people or the govt, then you can pretty much say what you want.  LDC = Shroud = Silencer and fools no one.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rsterne on January 20, 2016, 04:40:29 PM
Bashing other Forums will get this one off to a rocky start, IMO.... There is not one Forum I am a member of that is perfect.... The ones that are far from perfect, IMO, I never joined, or no longer support.... The more political they become, the less likely I am to stick around.... The same goes for ones that make decisions based on advertising dollars or commercial interests....

For me, it's pretty simple.... I am out for the betterment of the sport and the technology that goes into it.... The other "stuff" just gets in the way of my enjoyment of that.... If I'm not having fun, I (have and will) vote with my feet....

Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Alan on January 20, 2016, 04:50:52 PM
Bob, I agree. But.... How would you know until you reach that point?

On AGN, I got chastised for complaining about calling silencers by euphemisms. My point was, we're only fooling ourselves. The feds know EXACTLY what we're talking about, no matter what we call them. It reminds me of the story of Aladdin, and his dissertation about burying one's head in the sand. Doing so doesn't change the facts.

There is an old Chinese proverb which says words to the effect.... Those who ignore the obvious, shall live the obvious.

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 20, 2016, 04:53:48 PM
 Im not going to tell anyone what to do or say its freedom of speech but I have many friends including moderators there GTA that are dear friends so please out of respect lets just not bash them. I do not want this new forum to get a bad rap lets start off positive and keep it there.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 20, 2016, 05:35:06 PM
What exactly does one have to do or say to get kicked off? ::)

I got banned too yesterday from AirgunNation,

I've seen some badly run Forums in the past, but this one ? ...ho boy  ::) ::) ::)



By this one I ment AirgunNation,..rereading my post I realised it sounded like this one, Airgun Guild  ::) ::)

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 20, 2016, 05:48:35 PM
 Manny I know what you meant Brother but Thanks anyway for pointing it out. Seen lots of swell coming in are you hitting it?
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: mobilemail on January 20, 2016, 07:21:34 PM
Banned?.... I gotta Tenor Sax in the basement !!!

Bob

I'd love to see it. You probably recrowned the muzzle and hogged out the valves!   :) :) :)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: sixshootertexan on January 20, 2016, 07:54:35 PM
My motto is I'm a guest in the house and I go by their rules. Some times the mods say I'm stepping outside the rules but I say yes sir and move on. This is a hobby for me to have fun. I enjoy shooting as well as building airguns. I'm not going to get stressed out over minor stuff. If it gets so bad that I am stressing I'll just sell my stuff and find something else to do. I don't think I'll ever sell my airguns because I can shoot them in my backyard and I don't have to deal with anyone if I don't want to.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 20, 2016, 08:52:28 PM
 Thats enough boys!!! This is the chill zone at the GUILD its all relax no stress so lets keep it that way. No hate
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on January 21, 2016, 11:29:04 AM
Just PART of the reason we don't allow discussion of certain words. Do not want to draw unwanted attention to cause issues.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-paintball-andor-airgun-sound-suppressers-nfa-firearms
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on January 21, 2016, 11:32:32 AM
makes sense,,,,,but the talk around crap don't work either you know that
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: steveoh on January 21, 2016, 11:44:39 AM
Ok ATF is holding our feet to the fire.

Perhaps it's time to openly discuss this like adults, and use the power of all the airgun forums to get together and petition our CongressCritters to change the law. There are countries with way tougher gun and airgun control laws that allow for the use of a Suppressor, Silencer, Muffler, Pillow, Potato, oil filter, LDC, Muzzle Brake, etc to quiet down both airguns and firearms.

We can do so legally in the US, as long as we pay a fee. In my mind that is taxation without representation. The law is there just to collect money. Period.

It's silly to be paranoid, and hide behind attempted obfuscating terminology such as Lead Dust Collector.

All in favor of creating a petition and sending to all airgun forums to collaborate on, say Aye!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on January 21, 2016, 11:47:29 AM
There are many ways to approach a subject and discuss it. Like there are right ways and wrong ways to inform folks of anything. I guess we can agree to disagree but I believe keyword searches are in place and if a keyword pings on someone's desktop, then the looking deeper is sure to follow. There are not enough personnel to actively monitor every post of every forum. But you can bet they are looking.
We have been very successful so far in our approach. I see no reason to change what works.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on January 21, 2016, 11:50:13 AM
I remember someone once gave a great analogy....something about poking a bear with a stick.
Go ahead.
If we CAN in some way ALL come together with a united voice, maybe just maybe.
Good luck with that too.
:)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rocker1 on January 21, 2016, 11:52:28 AM
We actually have members from HLS, more than one.  David
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 21, 2016, 11:59:38 AM
Not sure poking the bear is a good idea either...But on the other hand I dislike big brother telling me what to do when we the people should be telling our Government what to do. Kind of on the fence myself
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: steveoh on January 21, 2016, 12:01:04 PM
GTA has over 15,000 members listed. Sure seems like that's the beginning of a movement.


I remember someone once gave a great analogy....something about poking a bear with a stick.
Go ahead.
If we CAN in some way ALL come together with a united voice, maybe just maybe.
Good luck with that too.
:)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on January 21, 2016, 12:02:48 PM
There are many ways to approach a subject and discuss it. Like there are right ways and wrong ways to inform folks of anything. I guess we can agree to disagree but I believe keyword searches are in place and if a keyword pings on someone's desktop, then the looking deeper is sure to follow. There are not enough personnel to actively monitor every post of every forum. But you can bet they are looking.
We have been very successful so far in our approach. I see no reason to change what works.

Do you really believe that the simple talk around terms are not already in their search strings??
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on January 21, 2016, 12:09:20 PM
Almost 16,000 and an INTERNATIONAL Airgun Forum. And just one of many.
The purpose and vision of GTA is an information site, not a political vanguard. I really don't want to be responsible for destroying a good place.
There ARE organizations set up just for the fight. NRA ILA for one. THERE we have a voice, one that gets attention. 
Join the fight where it can make a difference. All we would succeed in doing is getting our forum scrutinized or shut down.

Tom, like I said. We've been at this successfully since 2005. The way we run it works for the purpose it was set up for. We will continue to be the best possible.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on January 21, 2016, 12:20:56 PM


it's worked till now ....but collectively we ain't fooling anybody with talk arounds ....the whole house of cards can crash down via just one ATF career building GS type looking to make a name

The industry side of the hobby needs to lobby....in our simulated Democracy Money Talks

(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/critter99/animal-kingdom-parachute-parachuting-skydive-skydiver-lemmings-11831788_low_zps7evv1uaw.jpg) (http://s941.photobucket.com/user/critter99/media/animal-kingdom-parachute-parachuting-skydive-skydiver-lemmings-11831788_low_zps7evv1uaw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 21, 2016, 12:29:18 PM
 This is a touchy subject for sure and it can either lead to a government change or no more GTA and GUILD so like I said not sure how to approach this but Dez has a good point, There are organizations that have a much bigger voice like the NRA
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on January 21, 2016, 12:43:34 PM

it's worked till now ....but collectively we ain't fooling anybody with talk arounds ....the whole house of cards can crash down via just one ATF career building GS type looking to make a name

The industry side of the hobby need to lobby....in our simulated Democracy Money Talks

That is absolutely true. It COULD happen at any time...over the last ten years or sometime within the next 10. And if cornered, we WILL come out fighting tooth and nail. But until that time, we will press onward as we always have. And take our fight where it can actually make a difference.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: steveoh on January 21, 2016, 01:20:51 PM
I certainly find it refreshing to talk about it.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Slayer on January 21, 2016, 05:32:46 PM
The poll question is all wrong.  A good starting point is to know the law.  Removable has nothing to do with the legality although permanant makes intent and modification more difficult.

A good starting point would be to support the hearing protection act.   https://www.nraila.org/articles/20151022/nra-backs-hearing-protection-act

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rocker1 on January 22, 2016, 01:25:05 AM
I would rather walk around a nest of bees in a bush than kick it.  David
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ajshoots on January 22, 2016, 08:30:49 AM
The poll question is all wrong.  A good starting point is to know the law.  Removable has nothing to do with the legality although permanant makes intent and modification more difficult.

A good starting point would be to support the hearing protection act.   https://www.nraila.org/articles/20151022/nra-backs-hearing-protection-act

I agree with Slayer!! I have been following the hearing protection act and here in Ohio, Silencers are now legal for hunting. This just became law in 2015 in Ohio and it was all based on the proposal to protect our ears!! I am all for clarity in the laws and even believe silencers should be promoted like they are in the UK. However, I have no desire to kick the hornets nest!!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 22, 2016, 08:41:30 AM
I am with the above posters.

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: GD Giles on January 22, 2016, 07:29:10 PM
1. Nobody joins a forum to be solicited.
2. Most people don't join forums to troll others into fights but a few find it their purpose in life.
3. Every forum has rules to deal w/the above two and it's their playground we need to play by their rules until the solicitors and trolls get banned.

I've posted links to other forums and the links are still there and I seem to be in good standing. I believe the only rule they have in this area deals w/item #1 above for the most part. Seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: GungaDin on January 26, 2016, 05:38:38 PM
About legalizing silencers, even if it was JUST for airguns, you will never, EVER get that past Obama. The possibility of that going through depends on who the next president is.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on January 28, 2016, 04:31:47 PM
 :-\
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 29, 2016, 05:09:23 PM
Booted again from AGN. Dont ask questions or the overlords will get you!!!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Dcorvino on January 29, 2016, 05:24:13 PM
This will probably go down as a state issue not federal.
I know in Mass we are doing everything we can right now to save our airguns.
So right now I m not going to poke the bear on this issue.
Dave
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on January 29, 2016, 05:48:28 PM
All beware Das Boot!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 29, 2016, 06:53:27 PM
http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/a-compilation-of-fx-impact-problems-list-them-below/ NAZI Bastards   http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/fx-impact-problems/
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: bnowlin on January 30, 2016, 03:57:03 PM
Thats enough boys!!! This is the chill zone at the GUILD its all relax no stress so lets keep it that way. No hate

Yeah but you got 2 names, ban one and you're still there. :D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ztirffritz on January 31, 2016, 06:31:03 PM
It's getting sparse at AGN. I was wondering where everyone went.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rsterne on January 31, 2016, 07:30:04 PM
They won't have anyone left if they ban everybody.... *LOL*....

Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 31, 2016, 08:07:01 PM
 Trying to shut down The Freedom of speech is the worst thing a forum can do, You wont see it here That I can guarantee.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 31, 2016, 08:10:38 PM
They won't have anyone left if they ban everybody.... *LOL*....

Bob


They want to keep some, .......just the ones that always agree with them and post what they want others to read ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 31, 2016, 08:17:53 PM
Manny watch people will bad mouth me and maybe this forum right here on this forum but I wont ban them I believe everyone should speak their mind UNLESS it becomes personal than those people should take it to the chat room and work it out like adults.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 31, 2016, 08:38:45 PM
If threads are left to run their course sooner or later the cream comes to the top and phonies, people with agendas, and so on will get eventually exposed,

better to let healthy discussions do the culling than delete posts, delete threads and ban people.

Natural selection will do the job  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on January 31, 2016, 08:45:56 PM
Going on a little tangent,

I just heard from a dead on reliable source that Ted sold the site to the Admin.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on January 31, 2016, 08:54:05 PM
Good move on his part
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ztirffritz on February 01, 2016, 10:35:43 AM
If threads are left to run their course sooner or later the cream comes to the top and phonies, people with agendas, and so on will get eventually exposed,

better to let healthy discussions do the culling than delete posts, delete threads and ban people.

Natural selection will do the job  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I suggested to Michael that they follow the GTA model and allow moderators to moderate, but once the thread goes completely off the rails just move it to a 'backroom' where people can kvetch all they want.  That really is the best option that I've encountered.  It removes the 'censorship' accusations and makes it a matter of re-categorization. (ie you've abandoned the original topic, so we'll move this thread to the appropriate area.  Please feel free to keep arguing amongst yourselves...)  It quickly makes you realize who the crazy people are and how unbalanced some people are.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rsterne on February 01, 2016, 11:04:59 AM
I agree, just moving a thread to an "Unproductive Posts" board is normally enough to settle it down.... or should be for reasonable people....

Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Slayer on February 01, 2016, 12:04:54 PM
I have a different perspective....  Freedom of speech does not apply to a private forum.  Many people don't seem to realize these forums are 100% private and they run on privately owned servers and networks.  Just because you have access from the internet does not protect your speech.  Forums owners have the right to moderate, stifle, remove, edit, etc content in any form they wish.  Of course overly moderated forums become closed cliques and will quickly fade from the public eye.  Like all things, there is a balance between free speech and appropriate speech for a private forum.  That balance is the personality of the forum and will ultimately determine the forums success.

Members are the opposite.  They are not owned by any one forum are free to migrate, test, move, etc. to find their home or home away from home.  Quality content and focus on that content is key to keeping a member.  Wholesale removal of quality content because it doesn't meet your point of view will cost forum members.

It all boils down to Troll management.  Let the Trolls have their free speech; your beloved forum will simply deteriorate to a forum of discontent.  And to refer to other forums as NAZIs is to diminish the horrors the Nazzis inflicted on the plannet.

Tom
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ztirffritz on February 01, 2016, 12:42:34 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/88/46/21/8846215cf8a8581d5689887bbf9f1717.jpg)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rsterne on February 01, 2016, 01:11:48 PM
Good points, Tom.... There is a balance to be struck on every Forum.... In general, the more commercialized the Forum, the narrower will be it's vision, and the more restrictive its Moderation.... That commercialization can be because it is owned by a company only interested in promoting its products.... or because the Forum owner is interested in supporting his paid advertisers (understandable), and excluding those who don't pony up.... That's not to say those are bad Forums, but personally I tend to stay away from them because I like to be able to mention people and products I deem worthy, and I wouldn't last 10 minutes where that isn't allowed.... It is therefore my choice not to participate on those.... On the other hand, I won't try and dictate policy to them, either....

Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Crosman999 on February 01, 2016, 06:20:33 PM
Some very good points made in this thread,my take is just this! Some forums need to make money and when money is taken then those vendors have "protection". This means when someone makes a statement or asks a question about said product that forum is almost obligated to " hide" the situation. I read and participate in forums to learn and share the best I can,sometimes it may be confused with being rude or slandering. To erase a post when nothing has been said other than to ask a polite question or state a personal experience with a product is just wrong. Information is so important and in some cases is very critical in helping a product become better. Just my thoughts 8)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: bnowlin on February 02, 2016, 04:51:39 PM
Why heck young-un you'd make a hell of a grandson if that means anything ;)
Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: bnowlin on February 02, 2016, 05:00:49 PM
I love Airguns more than anything,some of you on here are my friends! We are all a group of people who may not normally mix,the airgun topic brings us together. I've been called stupid on other forums and all kinds of nonsense,my point is I'm still here because this is my life! It's a good life at that. 8)

I'm thinking I may love pure red heads if they can prove it ;D, but they are very close to air guns.
Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on February 02, 2016, 06:55:03 PM
 Bob you are the Bees Knees I dont care what your wife says.. ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: bnowlin on February 02, 2016, 07:05:55 PM
Aw shucks.  That sucks :P
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on February 02, 2016, 07:22:51 PM
Bob my friend give me a call sometime(not now LOL) I miss our talks.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on February 02, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
You can talk all you want because you're banned...LOL!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on February 11, 2016, 03:42:31 PM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: bnowlin on February 11, 2016, 04:16:24 PM
Bob my friend give me a call sometime(not now LOL) I miss our talks.

You talking about me Bob or Canada Bob? ;D  Kicking me off yougun?
Bob
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Habanero69er on February 11, 2016, 05:14:25 PM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Agreed! The less mentioned to the Federal government the better. If anyone hasn't already noticed, they have a tendency to muck things up when they get involved.   :o
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on February 11, 2016, 05:54:00 PM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Hear, hear !!!

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on February 11, 2016, 05:55:44 PM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Agreed! The less mentioned to the Federal government the better. If anyone hasn't already noticed, they have a tendency to muck things up when they get involved.   :o

Thank you Bullfrog.  That was something that I wasn't aware of and I for one appreciate your knowledge.

Joe
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on February 12, 2016, 07:55:10 AM
You're very welcome. Its very angering to me that ATF won't be honest about the law. They're like angry children that won't acknowledge their defeat in a game.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 12, 2016, 01:27:45 PM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Well written.  Thank you. 

I'm not an attorney but having been business all my life, and accidentally stumbling into a law class or two in college I might have picked up a thing or two besides what I learned watching crime dramas on TV. 

Seriously.  I don't know why any airgun forum or airgun expert would suppress (pun intended) knowledge of legal use of a legal part for airguns.  I ran across the Crooker case on Find Law some time ago.  I even asked a local ATF investigator if there is any other case law on the subject.  He said that there was none he was aware of.  Under federal law airgun SILENCERS, moderators, or lead dust collector are not restricted as long as their is no proof of intent for use on a firearm.  Nothing about removability, capability, service life, or ability to survive more than one shot is involved. 

However, that does not mean your silenced airgun is completely legal.  I've been told that some states have made airgun silencers illegal to own.  Technically this even applies to guns that are manufactured with them.  NJ comes to mind.  Maybe they have changed, but we had some conversation on that subject over at AirGunOne back before Splash stepped down. 

Rather than suppressing knowledge on the subject I think we should promote accurate knowledge on the subject like many sites do regarding firearms laws from state to state.  Its not about trying to sneak anything by the law, but about being informed, staying within the law, and not restricting our own right to do something because somebody not involved with the law or its enforcement suppresses it.  By censoring discussion on the topic or using aggressive and threatening language on the subject it takes away your right to own a perfectly legal object and perform a perfectly legal activity through fear and intimidation.  Knowledge negates that. 
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: GungaDin on March 12, 2016, 06:50:40 PM
Quote
I've been told that some states have made airgun silencers illegal to own.  Technically this even applies to guns that are manufactured with them.  NJ comes to mind.
Thanks to the short bus riders they have for politicians in NJ, airguns are considered firearms, so it's not surprising silencers aren't allowed for them.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bullfrog on March 13, 2016, 09:28:55 AM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Well written.  Thank you. 

I'm not an attorney but having been business all my life, and accidentally stumbling into a law class or two in college I might have picked up a thing or two besides what I learned watching crime dramas on TV. 

Seriously.  I don't know why any airgun forum or airgun expert would suppress (pun intended) knowledge of legal use of a legal part for airguns.  I ran across the Crooker case on Find Law some time ago.  I even asked a local ATF investigator if there is any other case law on the subject.  He said that there was none he was aware of.  Under federal law airgun SILENCERS, moderators, or lead dust collector are not restricted as long as their is no proof of intent for use on a firearm.  Nothing about removability, capability, service life, or ability to survive more than one shot is involved. 

However, that does not mean your silenced airgun is completely legal.  I've been told that some states have made airgun silencers illegal to own.  Technically this even applies to guns that are manufactured with them.  NJ comes to mind.  Maybe they have changed, but we had some conversation on that subject over at AirGunOne back before Splash stepped down. 

Rather than suppressing knowledge on the subject I think we should promote accurate knowledge on the subject like many sites do regarding firearms laws from state to state.  Its not about trying to sneak anything by the law, but about being informed, staying within the law, and not restricting our own right to do something because somebody not involved with the law or its enforcement suppresses it.  By censoring discussion on the topic or using aggressive and threatening language on the subject it takes away your right to own a perfectly legal object and perform a perfectly legal activity through fear and intimidation.  Knowledge negates that.

I don't blame airgun sources being cautious prior to the Crooker case, as you had ATF strongly asserting control over airgun suppressors with no authority to the contrary. But after Crooker I do not believe there is any reason to not acknowedge the fact that airgun only suppressors are not regulated by ATF. I think pride is probably a primary reason why Crooker isn't openly acknowledged in some circles. Some people doubled down on what turned out to be the wrong interpretation of the law and human nature being what it is, people just don't like to admit when they are wrong.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rocker1 on March 14, 2016, 02:00:06 AM
It would be bad idea to petition the government. The current state of the law is that silencers for airguns are LEGAL without registration even if they can be removed. ATF says otherwise but they have been OVERRULED. See the Crooker case from the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Crooker had a removeble airgun suppressor that with some work could be fitted to a firearm. But there was no evidence that he intended such. He was convicted and sent to Federal prison. In 2010 his conviction was overturned and ATF's position was rejected. Doesnt matter if the suppressor is removable. What matters is whether its intended for a firearm. There was no evidence in Crooker's case he intended such. Therefore he was released and was awarded $170k in damages for unjust conviction. The court opined that Congress might consider changing the federal statutes to include airgun suppressors in ATF's authority, but as written the law does not currently give them power over airgun only suppressors. No other federal appellate court case has tackled the issue so this one case is the law of the land.

So there's no need to lobby congress. The law already says what it needs to. We don't want to tempt them to add airgun suppressor's to ATF's jurisdiction.

As a few asides, yes most airgun websites have it wrong. They parrot what ATF says without consideration that ATF may be willfully and stubbornly lying about what the law is because they don't like what the courts have told them. And yes, I am an attorney. But most importantly, yes I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Agreed! The less mentioned to the Federal government the better. If anyone hasn't already noticed, they have a tendency to muck things up when they get involved.   :o
  Like I said don't kick a bees nest.  David
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 18, 2016, 05:19:44 PM
Suppression of knowledge isn't being cautious.  Its suppression of knowledge. 



Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on March 18, 2016, 09:43:24 PM
Yeah, it's very easy for some to ridicule for limiting certain discussions that help preserve a forum. After all, they can just move on to the next one when a forum gets the attention of the gub-mint and start getting harassed or shut down.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 18, 2016, 10:49:46 PM
Yeah, it's very easy for some to ridicule for limiting certain discussions that help preserve a forum. After all, they can just move on to the next one when a forum gets the attention of the gub-mint and start getting harassed or shut down.

Ridicule?  I didn't ridicule anything.  I spoke the truth.  Don't start saying things that are false.  Don't bring your problem with me here.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on March 18, 2016, 11:49:38 PM
Yeah, it's very easy for some to ridicule for limiting certain discussions that help preserve a forum. After all, they can just move on to the next one when a forum gets the attention of the gub-mint and start getting harassed or shut down.


Not liking the truth about something does not make it any less true....tough concept for some I don't know why?
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Habanero69er on March 19, 2016, 06:17:08 AM
Sometimes the less said, the better. Not to suppress truth, but to preserve something. Some sites do take it too far though.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ezman604 on March 19, 2016, 07:43:24 AM
Yeah, it's very easy for some to ridicule for limiting certain discussions that help preserve a forum. After all, they can just move on to the next one when a forum gets the attention of the gub-mint and start getting harassed or shut down.


Not liking the truth about something does not make it any less true....tough concept for some I don't know why?

Most excellent statement Tom.
:)
Why some cannot accept the truth is beyond me too.
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Frank in Fairfield on March 19, 2016, 06:13:33 PM
I don't mind getting booted but I think the moderator/administrator should man up and tell a person when/why they were banned!
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2016, 09:21:29 AM
To sum it up:

* Airgun moderators are not illegal in most states. 
* They are legal under federal law and there is a federal court precedent to back that up. 
* Some people are holding a very old position out of... obstinance is my best guess. 
* Asking the federal government to step in I agree would be a very bad idea. 
* Suppressing legal knowledge of a legal thing is censorship at its worst. 
* Suppressing knowledge of the legality of something in the very place that wants to be the center of conversation on that subject is ( H - nonvulgar truthful term left out as some may find it offensive - Y ) on the same vein as a university banning books on the subjects they teach. 

For clarity.  Firearm silencers are not illegal in most states either.  Firearm silencers are not illegal under federal law.  A tax stamp (permit) is required to own a firearm silencer.  Owning a firearm silencer without a permit is illegal.  It is a criminal offense and can result in jail time.  It is a modestly difficult process to get a permit, but it is not insurmountable.  It is also a time consuming process.  Not in effort expended, but in time spent waiting. 

Discussion and knowledge of firearm silencers is not illegal.  It is in fact protected speech.  However, because it has a higher likelihood of being associated with somebody owning a firearm silencer without a permit it might be reasonable to redirect conversations of firearm silencers to a more suitable venue, and request that discussions of silencers, moderators, cleaning fluid collectors etc as regards to "firearms" also be directed to a more suitable venue.  Censorship and banning of proper redirection to more suitable venues borders on unbelievable.  That is an active act suppression of knowledge. 

Doing so on an activity not associated an illegal act is beyond unbelievable.  Its not vulgar.  Its not indecent.  I'm not even cognizant of a good current reason why some people act like it is so offensive. 

Rhetoric about being silenced by the fed and going to jail for a legal activity is fear used for intimidation. 

I am not specifically arguing that controlling parties pf other venues should just flip a switch and change how they are, but rather that they should not got to other venues to argue for universally acceptance on all other other venues or denial and diminutization of venues that do not tow their line.  If we were all the same then there would only be one venue and we would all be hunting with our bare hands and living on the open ground.   

And in case there is an ATF agent reading this.  I have manufactured a moderator for an airgun.  It works.  I have no intention to ever use it on a firearm.  It would have to be modified to work on a firearm, and it would be unsafe to do so.  If you choose to confiscate my moderator and test it on a firearm you are the one breaking the law.  I post under my real name, and I live in Yuma, Az. 

Well unless somebody has something new to say, I've had my fill on on this subject. 
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on March 20, 2016, 10:00:34 AM
well said and my block below so applies to that other place

"Not liking the truth about something does not make it any less true....tough concept for some I don't know why?"

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on March 20, 2016, 12:34:22 PM
Thanks Bob, oh by the way...BANNED!  8) ::) :P

I am just kidding.   ;)

I do appreciate your input, as I am sure others do to.  I have talked to several on this topic and everything I was told is along your same lines.  The ATF does know of the moderators used on airguns/rifles and they do keep an eye on them and that they are used for AIR POWERED GUNS/RIFLES.  Some of them will even tell you which ones work the best.

So with all this being said, lets take the info for what it is worth, and make sure that WE, as group of individuals, follow the laws and use them properly and use them for the way they are to be LEGALLY used and that WE DO NOT MODIFY THEM TO WORK ON FIREARMS, POWDER BURNERS, GUNPOWDER POWERED RIFLES, GUNS...etc.!

So lets have fun, be safe, practice safety at all times, and make sure the new airgun/rifle shooters are taught to do the same.

Joe
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Bob La Londe on March 20, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
Thanks Bob, oh by the way...BANNED!  8) ::) :P
Joe

You just made me spurt coffee out my nose.  That is messed up.  LOL. 

Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on March 20, 2016, 12:48:31 PM
Thanks Bob, oh by the way...BANNED!  8) ::) :P
Joe

You just made me spurt coffee out my nose.  That is messed up.  LOL.

I do my best.  By the way, nice bass in your avatar pic.

Joe
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: rocker1 on March 21, 2016, 02:21:04 AM
 Just what is the truth Tom    Have anything to do with rules???  David
.
well said and my block below so applies to that other place

"Not liking the truth about something does not make it any less true....tough concept for some I don't know why?"


Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on March 22, 2016, 11:17:49 PM
Just what is the truth Tom    Have anything to do with rules???  David


Sometimes rules suppress the truth or are used to suppress anything they want to adapt rules to suppress...privately controlled or owned so no real freedom of speech can be expected most have an agenda to some degree or another IE

1.  air compresses differently above 3000 psi or so to state differently is deception

2.  Some dealers will use any tactic to gain market share or crush customer complaints or competing dealers

Both 1 and 2 are true but can be highly discouraged by arbitrary selective application of rules


.
well said and my block below so applies to that other place

"Not liking the truth about something does not make it any less true....tough concept for some I don't know why?"


Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Booger on March 24, 2016, 06:17:05 AM
Which dealers are you speaking of Mr. Critter?

Just what is the truth Tom    Have anything to do with rules???  David


Sometimes rules suppress the truth or are used to suppress anything they want to adapt rules to suppress...privately controlled or owned so no real freedom of speech can be expected most have an agenda to some degree or another IE

1.  air compresses differently above 3000 psi or so to state differently is deception

2.  Some dealers will use any tactic to gain market share or crush customer complaints or competing dealers

Both 1 and 2 are true but can be highly discouraged by arbitrary selective application of rules


.
well said and my block below so applies to that other place

"Not liking the truth about something does not make it any less true....tough concept for some I don't know why?"


Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: critter on March 24, 2016, 07:12:24 AM
Booger replied in PM ....don't wanna clog this up with old obvious stuff
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: oldpro on March 24, 2016, 09:29:37 AM
Yes lets keep this open but with respect no need to bring old crap here. Bad mouthing other forums or members is a no no lets keep it fresh and no finger pointing. Thats all carry on :)
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Crotchety geezer on April 29, 2016, 03:51:53 AM
While I don't always agree with mods on every forum I join(for all hobbies not just AGs) I try to respect their rules as best I can.  When someone gets banned it doesn't always seem fair or even clear as to why but it's done by the admin of that site.  I'm sure the decision isn't made lightly but it should be for the benefit of the entire forum...not as a personal issue. 

Every member should be cherished by that site as we could spend our time elsewhere if we choose. When any site looses one member be it through a ban or a voluntary withdrawl, that entire sight suffers as that's one less persons knowledge or questions to review.

I've had several mentors in this sport and I'm thankful to you all here for creating a spot we could all come back together! Please for the sake of peace and sanity close the doors on the history and let's make this site the best we all can!

End of rant...surrender my soapbox now
John
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: Monkeydad1969 on April 29, 2016, 06:08:02 PM
Jward681,

How many soap boxes do you own?  LOL!

Just kidding.

Joe ;D
Title: Re: Just got kicked off another site!!!
Post by: ncrary on May 12, 2016, 06:06:51 AM
I just read through all 7 pages of this thread.  Interesting reading  Will have to mull this over.