Author Topic: What do you consider big game?  (Read 1206 times)

Chickenthief

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2020, 09:38:30 AM »
Anything above 22LR or 130fpe-ish.

The inuits in Greenland hunted raindeer extensively (and polar bears!) with 22LR but that was because the shooter got the game regardless of where it ran. So with no trees they had plenty of time "tracking" the wounded animal.

From that we have evolved slightly and now a certain minimum of energy is needed for a humane kill.

Think of yourself: would you rather have a 22LR and take hours to die or a fast humane kill?
They may not think as we do but they deserve the same humane rights and no needless suffering!
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Bullfrog

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2020, 10:18:11 AM »
Anything above 22LR or 130fpe-ish.

The inuits in Greenland hunted raindeer extensively (and polar bears!) with 22LR but that was because the shooter got the game regardless of where it ran. So with no trees they had plenty of time "tracking" the wounded animal.

From that we have evolved slightly and now a certain minimum of energy is needed for a humane kill.

Think of yourself: would you rather have a 22LR and take hours to die or a fast humane kill?
They may not think as we do but they deserve the same humane rights and no needless suffering!

Usually .22lr kills are instant because they’re always brain shots. In rural Florida is common to poach deer with .22 rimfires, but I’ve never heard of anyone using .22s for anything except brain shots.

Gerard

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2020, 10:43:45 AM »
I am a firm believer in the "1 FPE per pound MINIMUM delivered at the target" rule, and it better be a heart or double lung shot, and not hit the shoulder on the way....

Bit of an aside, but I'm curious how one might apply this rule to a 9mm PCC. I've not hunted so far, but it has seemed to me that with a muzzle energy of ~370fpe with Winchester JHP 147gr, retaining 279fpe at 100 yards, a pistol calibre carbine ought to be sufficient for deer up to, say, 200lbs. Does this sound adequate based on your hunting experience?

I know it doesn't provide an 'overkill' type margin of error, but as you say with Manny's practice on hogs, I'm not a fellow prone to taking high risk shots. Dropped another grey squirrel yesterday with a .177", 6fpe, just ahead of the ear canal as usual, waiting about 5 minutes for him to orient his head just right before taking the shot. I'd not be likely to take a shot at a deer beyond 50 yards, a distance at which I feel comfortable hitting a 2" target 100% of the time while standing unsupported. Beyond that would seem too risky.

But without the practical experience of hunting anything larger than rats and squirrels (2lbs max) this is going to be new territory for me, hence the possibly very naive question. If I have to resign myself to buying a 7mm Remington or something for hunting when the time comes I'll do that, but would prefer to use the carbine as I'm just very comfortable shooting it. Taking shots at a couple of hundred yards may be fun on paper, but where a life is on the line I'd really prefer to keep things closer to reduce potential for the animal moving between trigger squeeze and bullet impact. I'll not be going to big bore PCP, preferring to keep my airguns at 20fpe and below as I'm using an FX pump and filling a much more powerful airgun would be a bit too tiring as I got used to shooting it... but I suppose the question above could be framed as a 9mm airgun hollow-point slug question just the same - 1,070fps is 1,070fps whether from a PCP or a powder explosion.
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Alan

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2020, 12:51:19 PM »
I hope this doesn't get boring...

I suspect Bob Sterne guesstimate is fairly close, with his 1 FPE per pound for an airgun on small to medium sized game. However, if that held true for bigger game, you could say a 222 Remington was (overly) large enough for shooting elk. Quite obviously, it is not.

Then there is (are) the group who taut the Kinetic Energy theory. Supposedly, the theory considers not only the terminal energy (at point of impact), using bullet weigh, velocity, and construction, as a way of selecting the correct cartridge, and its attributes, for any given sized game. This so-called scientific method is full of holes when it comes to African "big" game. However...

Terminal ballistics vary over a very large dynamic range, depending on the type (hollow point, plastic tipped, ball, etc.). This fact sort of explains all of the hype applied to the various jacketed bullet designs from whomever. As if, that is, some manufacturers' bullets are better than another?

But, pellets aren't jacketed bullets! Fact is, they're almost pure lead (very small percentage of tin or antimony added to harden them a bit). As a result, they tend to flatten out (expand), especially at sub-sonic velocities. I believe, this gives pellets—and to a greater degree slugs—the ability to "kill" with less terminal energy, than some jacketed bullets do at higher velocities. I also believe, that round headed pellets have superior killing ability. I even wrote about this (see Editorial Archives).

A little more proof...

The well-touted book, Gunshot Wounds, written by Vincent J.M. Di Maio, support this scenario. Over many years of close study, one of his beliefs centers around handguns bullets (exposed lead designs) being better killers than rifle cartridges at several times the terminal velocity. Call it expansion, because that is author's consensus of opinion, as it is mine!

One thing is for sure. You can not make a pat statement, with regards to "stopping power" or  "killing power" (whatever you want to call it), without knowing all of the parameters, especially where the hit was made!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:58:50 AM by Alan »
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Gerard

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2020, 01:07:04 PM »
Well before I hunt with hollow-point 147gr 9mm, I'd certainly conduct field tests. A decent sized cheap roast with a layer of cheap pork ribs, a layer of thick belt leather, covered in a heavy polyester fleece ought to do the trick of simulating fur, skin, ribs and muscle. Two or three shots at a suitable range with a 'high tech fleece back stop' as Paul Harrell uses should leave me some bullets to examine, besides the damage to the target itself. Bit of a load to carry into the bush to practice on... but maybe I can bring along my twig stove and carve up the remains for a bit of a comfortable meat toasting session to help justify it further, trimming away anything with lead in it.

In Duct Seal with about 2" of lead behind it I'm seeing fantastic expansion, of course. Whether JHP or FMJ of similar velocity and the same weight, all stop at most 1/2" into the lead. FMJ expands to about 22mm average. The JHP expands to 32mm average. Not directly applicable data, but good to see significantly greater expansion with the hollow-point. Seems to me the jacket on hollow-point 9mm isn't all that significantly different from solid lead rounds. Certainly not a close relationship when compared to something like .223 copper jacketed pointed stuff, where tumbling is much more relevant than expansion.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 01:08:44 PM by Gerard »
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Airgun_Adventurer

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2020, 10:28:16 PM »
Thanks for the book info Alan I will look it up,  sorry about the lag in follow up half the crew got "sick" when hunting season opened up and because of covid we can't dispute it lol I have been covering everyone's shifts .

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761xl

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Re: What do you consider big game?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2020, 01:39:05 AM »
 35 cal pellet starting at about 109 fpe seems to kill deer fine but no sign of a blood trail even on a complete pass through. 9 mm pistol 400 +fpe with 115 gr xtp does good too and theres plenty of blood on ground even without passthrough.  I wont be around long enough to shoot 1000 deer with either ,but both have worked a time or two for sure.
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