Author Topic: Curious  (Read 433 times)

Alan

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Curious
« on: October 24, 2019, 05:20:57 AM »
I know swaging equipment is expensive, hence most folks end up pouring. I would think that swaged bullets would be superior to molded ones (more consistent) if properly weighed before the swage process. Any comments?



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Alan

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steveoh

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Re: Curious
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 05:46:59 AM »
I have tried swaged bullets here and there, but never found their performance to be any or much better than cast. Maybe I just didn’t get the right ones.

I have some Nielsen boat tails that are I think 85 grains. Perhaps too heavy, or I just never found the right power wheel setting on the Texan. The go to bullet remains the 72 +- grain 257420 or variants for that rifle. So a good comparison would be 70-74 grain swaged bullets similar to the 257420.

I tried some Rat Sniper Swaged bullets for my Sumatra, but I couldn’t get past the fact that they fall out of the magazine and jam the gun. They might be ok with a slotted and o-ringed magazine designed to securely hold the bullet in place.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 06:23:25 AM by steveoh »
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Steelhead

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Re: Curious
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2019, 06:32:41 AM »
I haven't seen a noticeable difference. However, for slug shooters who buy their ammo (i.e. don't cast themselves) I think the consistency could make a difference. I have shot a lot of swaged ammo from NSA and the consistency is good. The down side for me is that my Texan barrel doesn't like the .308 sized slugs so it's not really a fair comparison. Nick Nielson sent me some .309 sized bullets and they performed the best for me, but not any better than my own cast bullets.

The main thing I noticed about the swaged bullets is that they lack the drive bands and/or lube rings that cast bullets have. I'm not sure what effect that has and it probably varies from gun to gun, but I have a feeling that my Texan barrel likes the bands. Who knows, maybe a Benjamin Bulldog shoots smooth swaged bullets better than cast...can't say.

One thing should be noted; my cast slugs are sized and usually weighed to verify consistency so I feel like I'm shooting a superior ammo. If one is purchasing ammo I think that swaged is better than 'budget' ammo from Air Venturi, Hunter Supply, etc.  In conversations with Nick he has been very frank in stating that swaging is not a miracle cure for accuracy. It is however a guarantee of consistency and quality and as a consumer you pay for that (rightfully so)  I think that it's good to try them to see if they're the magic pill. The mold that I bought from Arsenal in a group buy (I didn't really want it but I felt obligated because I said I would jump in on the group buy on a whim and then I had to put up or shut up) turned out to be the most accurate bullet I have by a wide margin. You never know.

I have shot .22 swaged slugs through my new JSAR Raptor (TJ barrel) and they don't perform as well as JSB pellets...not even close. I could tune the regulator and work on reeling in the groups but I feel that the trials are not worth the effort as I already have a .30 cal slug shooter and a .25 cal. pellet shooter. No need to force it.
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Re: Curious
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2019, 08:35:54 AM »
When talking consistency, commercially available swaged pellets are not as great as you might think they are.... Everybody gets an incomplete fill, or something else causing a lighter than normal slug when casting.... but if you throw those back into the pot, the remaining slugs, from a competent and careful caster, are generally a tighter weight tolerance, in percentage terms, than pellets, even good ones like the JSB Exacts.... I personally don't usually weigh my slugs, but when I do, all I throw back into the pot are ones with obvious flaws, or below a certain weight, which indicates an internal void, IMO.... The remaining slugs are usually within a 1% weight range.... which causes only a 0.5% ES due to weight variance.... That is good enough, IMO....

A swaged slug must be slightly smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel, because the lead in the long, parallel sides of the bearing area has to have somewhere to go when engaged by the rifling.... Cast bullet designs have either driving bands and lube groove (PB types), and the lead can move into the grooves.... OR they are designed with a slightly smaller midbody, which is a couple of thou smaller than the land diameter (like my BBTs)…. This reduces the number of bands touching the rifling to two, which reduces the bore friction.... We don't need deep lube grooves, so why have a feature that disturbs the airflow and increases the drag?....

Swaged slugs offer the consumer consistency, and most of the time you can find one that will perform in your gun.... Nick has recently got his high-speed machine up and running, which has reduced the price to in some cases not much more than pellets.... He is meticulous in his development and testing, and his knowledge of what works in what barrel is paramount to the success of his products.... I highly recommend his products, but it might take you some experimenting to find the right one for your gun....just exactly the same as with pellets or cast slugs....

IMO, proper sizing of a cast slug to your bore can make a huge difference in accuracy, and indeed some difference in velocity.... About 0.001" smaller than the groove diameter seems to be the sweet spot for many slugs.... but you DO need to try different sizes.... Fortunately, with the NOE bushing sizing system, in 0.001" increments at only $9.50 each.... that is an easy process....

Bob
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Alan

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Re: Curious
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2019, 08:48:14 AM »
I don't shoot bullets, and it has been a long time since I cast any. Those that I did cast, all had gas checks. Be interesting these days, to see if gas checks would work in airguns.

I exclusively shoot .25 caliber, 25.39 grain, JSB Exacts. I have two airguns in this caliber, besides the Cobra I shoot 99% of the time. With the Cobra, I get very consistent, ≈half inch groups at 100 yards at the indoor range if I do my part well. The interesting thing here is, the flyers I do get, are few and far between. I wouldn't argue about the weight consistency variation, because I never weigh them. However, if there were really bad in this respect, I wouldn't be getting the groups I'm seeing.

You guys keep your bullets, and I'll remain shooting my Exacts as I have ≈15,000 on hand!
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Alan

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bnowlin

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Re: Curious
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2019, 04:07:34 PM »
I have a question to those who cast boolits a pellets.  I you guys recycle lead that has been retrieved and melt it over and over, does it lose any thing that would cause it to deteriorate to were it is less useable for boolits or pellets?
Bobn

steveoh

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Re: Curious
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2019, 05:50:51 PM »
About the only time I recycle bullets is when I’m shooting the .58 DAQs. Those bullets and round balls use a lot of lead. Need to weld up a stand for the bullet trap I have so I can recycle more.  I see no difference in lead or bullet quality when melting down old bullets. I do avoid melting anything but pure lead.
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Re: Curious
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2019, 06:16:28 PM »
Alan,

My sweetest shooting bullet is a gas check. The close 2nd is a boattail. My Texan does not like flat base bullets at all. Something that I noticed recently; it's been a while since I shot Hunter Supply ammo. What I saw was that the popular .308 154 gr. spire point was a gas check. Other HS molds were flat base, but for some reason those 154's were/are gas check.


Bnowlin,

I recycle some bullets. I have some ammo from other sources that I know I won't use, flattened slugs at the base of my steel targets, stuff like that. I don't use fishing weights, wheel weights, or anything like that. Too many different materials in it. I have about a hundred pounds of pure lead right now. I bought a commercial cupcake pan at a garage sale for 10 bucks. I melt a bunch of lead in the big pot and pour it into ingots (lead cupcakes)  They're a perfect fit in my Lee pot and should keep me shooting for the foreseeable future (unless I buy a .45 or .50 cal.)
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rsterne

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Re: Curious
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2019, 06:37:41 PM »
Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong.... but the gas check bullets you are using are WITHOUT the gas check, right?.... just the stub?....

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Re: Curious
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2019, 06:59:38 PM »
Yes, Bob...sorry I should have clarified that. No actual gas check installed post-casting, just the mold option for it. As you said, the 'stub'.
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Re: Curious
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2019, 07:33:27 PM »
It seems to be quite common for airguns to like bullets with a gas check stub over flat based bullets....

Bob
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Re: Curious
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2019, 10:45:03 PM »
I have a question to those who cast boolits a pellets.  I you guys recycle lead that has been retrieved and melt it over and over, does it lose any thing that would cause it to deteriorate to were it is less useable for boolits or pellets?
Bobn

Nope.
I mean when using the same lead you cast with.
Just clean the lead and go. 
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Nicesurprice

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Re: Curious
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2019, 10:50:47 PM »
I have tried swaged bullets here and there, but never found their performance to be any or much better than cast. Maybe I just didn’t get the right ones.

I have some Nielsen boat tails that are I think 85 grains. Perhaps too heavy, or I just never found the right power wheel setting on the Texan. The go to bullet remains the 72 +- grain 257420 or variants for that rifle. So a good comparison would be 70-74 grain swaged bullets similar to the 257420.

I tried some Rat Sniper Swaged bullets for my Sumatra, but I couldn’t get past the fact that they fall out of the magazine and jam the gun. They might be ok with a slotted and o-ringed magazine designed to securely hold the bullet in place.

Same here.
Untill today swagged never beat the cast slugs.

However NSA did after resizing one time.
Did size them for a costumer.
However after all he had slugs 2 times the price.
And they needed work before shooting.
Think the reason was we use exact and tested sizing for a rifle.
A mass produced product will never beat costume work.

Grts
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