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Author Topic: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?  (Read 1536 times)

oldpro

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What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« on: June 30, 2017, 08:22:32 PM »
 Ive been watching the market place and technology advancements etc. but Really I havent seen anything thats pushed the envelope much. So that being said what is the next big thing or advancement in our sport Im seriously looking for and waiting for the BIG BANG to happen but its all really just the same old thing done different ways.


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rsterne

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2017, 08:45:25 PM »
IMO, we are in a period of evolution, not revolution, in PCPs.... There are many improvements that can be made, but the steps seem to be occurring gradually.... Here are some things where I believe improvements are on the way.... Most are already here, just not commonplace yet.... and almost no use by major manufacturers....

1. Lighter materials, such as Aluminum and Titanium, and more extensive use of Carbon Fibre, for bottles, and barrel sleeves and shrouds, even stocks....
2. More powerful regulated guns, which means higher setpoint pressures and larger plenums.... and externally adjustable regulators....
3. Balanced valves to enable more FPE without the large increase in cocking force that is required without them....
4. Bullets instead of pellets, to drastically improve downrange velocity and energy....
5. Greater standardization of calibers, regarding barrel dimensions and twist rates....

I may think of more later....

Bob
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 09:13:47 PM by rsterne »
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Monkeydad1969

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2017, 02:13:26 AM »
Very good points, Bob.
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Alan

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2017, 04:07:31 AM »
You ask.

The features Bob spoke of—adjustable regulation, larger plenums, etc.—are meant to assure shot to shot consistency, while making the gun easily adaptable (adjustable) to different projectile weights. If there were a better way, to make the amount of air volume more consistent, accuracy would improve, perhaps drastically. One way to do that is to use an electronically-controlled valve. Daystate uses them, but theirs is electro-mechanical in nature which is a draw back.

Automobile manufacturers no longer use electro-mechanical injection, and have switched over to piezo-electric injectors. This was done to make the injection cycle much more precise, while allowing the fuel to spray directly into the compressed chambers at pressure levels exceeding several thousand bar! While reduced emissions where their goal, those same techniques could be used in airguns. Piezo injector timing can be sub-millisecond in precision.

The biggest hurtle is the high voltage requirement (≈90vdc) to operate them. This isn't an issue in vehicles, but it would be with airguns. I'm sure the issues can be overcome, but there will be a cost penalty to be sure.

This probably isn't the place, but I personally have an issue with the switch-over to bullets instead of pellets. My feelings all relate to fed regulation, and anything dealing with the fed is always scary as hell!
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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 07:26:30 AM »
IMO, we are in a period of evolution, not revolution, in PCPs.... There are many improvements that can be made, but the steps seem to be occurring gradually.... Here are some things where I believe improvements are on the way.... Most are already here, just not commonplace yet.... and almost no use by major manufacturers....

1. Lighter materials, such as Aluminum and Titanium, and more extensive use of Carbon Fibre, for bottles, and barrel sleeves and shrouds, even stocks....
2. More powerful regulated guns, which means higher setpoint pressures and larger plenums.... and externally adjustable regulators....
3. Balanced valves to enable more FPE without the large increase in cocking force that is required without them....
4. Bullets instead of pellets, to drastically improve downrange velocity and energy....
5. Greater standardization of calibers, regarding barrel dimensions and twist rates....

I may think of more later....

Bob

I'm new to having regulators on my guns. All my guns have one now, and I'm not going back. My two Huma regulators for my Mrods are internally adjusted, but as I've dedicated each Mrod to a set power level, that's no big deal.

I've also been testing one of Travis' Cobra regulators on my .30 Flex. I love how much quieter it makes the gun at a given power level and how easy it is to tune on a regulator. Each shot feels and sounds like its taking just a quick sip of air. I also like knowing I can shift between FPE levels by just a turn on the regulator's screw and some tightening or loosening of the hammer spring.

I would say externally adjustable regulators ought to be the next big thing.

rsterne

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2017, 09:15:16 AM »
Alan, I agree with your comments about bullets vs pellets to some degree, because of the increased lethality at longer range.... The .22LR is "dangerous within 1 mile", and modern PCPs shooting bullets certainly fall within that category.... Pellets remain a relatively short range projectile, because their low BC limits both their downrange velocity and energy, and their ability to resist a crosswind.... That can be an advantage shooting in or around people or property.... but in terms of "advancement" of PCPs, they are IMO the obvious limiting factor....

PCPs will always face PRACTICAL velocity limits confining them to the Subsonic.... The maximum FPE for any caliber is limited by barrel length and pressure, the former is a matter of what is practical, and the latter is limited by the Physics of air.... Yes, we can keep increasing the pressure beyond 4500 psi, but the returns diminish quickly.... not in terms of power, but shot count.... because at extreme pressures less air gets crammed into the tank to create the additional pressure.... It takes 8000 psi to contain twice the air molecules than at 3000 psi.... As we push bullets into the Transonic (Mach 0.8-1.2) not only does the air usage required skyrocket, but the bullet slows down very rapidly once it leaves the muzzle, and actually has increased wind drift.... The combination of inefficiencies internally and externally mean it makes sense to stay below 1000 fps.... Since the weight of bullet in a given caliber to reach that velocity is limited by the pressure and barrel length, in reality the only way to get a large increase FPE is to go to a larger caliber.... With that caliber increase you get an increase in noise, recoil, the amount of air required, and expense, all of which impose PRACTICAL limits as well....

If the goal is to hit targets at longer range, and with greater remaining energy, then IMO the biggest improvement over pellets lies with bullets.... We are in the infancy of creating projectiles (and the barrels to shoot them accurately) that are designed to perform within the limited capabilities of airguns.... so perhaps that is where the biggest advances have yet to be made?....

Bob
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Nvreloader

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2017, 07:40:40 AM »
IMHO,
I for one, would like to see the bore size change for the 17/22 calibers, make them the same a standard center fire bore sizes ie,
.172 for 17 cal and .224 for 22 caliber, instead of what they are now.

Then the choices you would have are,
1. Rifling twist choices,
2. Bullet weight would be unlimited within reason, etc.

The down side would approx $15 + for 100 bullets.  :'(

The internal ballistics of jacketed bullets, and the approx pull out and starting PSI, for these types of projectiles is,
Jacketed = 3625 psi
Solid Soft brass = 1800 psi
Solid Copper = 6525 psi
FMJ with Hard Core = 6525 psi

Moly coated bullets
Jacketed bullets = 2400 psi
Solid Brass = 1500 psi
Solid Copper = 4350 psi

Handgun Bullets
Jacketed = 2175 psi
Lead = 1160 psi

Bullets seated to touch the lands, adds 7200 psi to the start psi.

I don't know what the starting psi is required for AR pellets is, but I would believe that it is lower than 1160 psi,
since we are dealing with HPA @ 3000 psi and as low as 850 psi with Co2 or lower, as an average.

I am sure that Bob would know these facts off the top of his head.  ;)

Just think of the results of a,
.172 cal bullet, 20 gr bullet, with a BC of .185 and SD of .097. at of 1000+ fps, and there is 15/17 gr bullets also.

Or a .224 cal bullet with a 35 gr bullet, with a BC of .109 and SD of .100 at 1000+ fps, compared to what we are shooting now.

Has anyone tried Moly coating their pellets?

Tia,
Don
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rsterne

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2017, 08:19:24 AM »
I have never seen the "starting pressures" of bullets listed, and while I won't argue with them, it makes sense to me that the numbers would depend on the bullet fit in the bore and the SD.... I would think that is why jacketed pistol bullets have a lower pressure than rifle bullets, for example, because they have a lower SD.... You can blow a pellet out of a barrel with shop air at ~ 100 psi.... On the other hand, I have had a 0.227" soft lead bullet fail to start in a 0.224" groove barrel at 3000 psi....

As far as the velocity being pushed to over 1000 fps, it does make for a flatter trajectory, but the wind drift actually increases.... and so does the amount of air required to reach those velocities.... Even using bullets, it becomes a matter of efficiency, both inside and outside the barrel....

Bob
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Bob La Londe

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2017, 09:23:07 AM »
I have never seen the "starting pressures" of bullets listed, and while I won't argue with them,

Wouldn't that be the chamber pressures listed in the SAAMI specs? 

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rsterne

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 09:45:18 AM »
Not sure, but I would think that is the maximum chamber pressures, often ~50,000 psi....

Bob
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Nvreloader

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 03:29:54 PM »
Guys,

Check out this internal/external ballistics program,
you will be amazed just how accurate it is, WHEN you input the valid info etc,
well worth the $$$, IMHO.

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

Bob
You have an inbound PM.

Tia,
Don
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It is time to restore the American precept, that each individual is accountable for their actions"
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Alan

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2017, 03:41:20 PM »
I don't want to "steal" the tread, but Don brings up an interesting subject—in short, coated bullets, or pellets in this case.

When I was reloading all of my center-fire ammo, I coated all of my bullets with Danzac (tungsten disulfide), rather than Moly (molybdenum disulfide) because Danzac doesn't rub off as easily. While we're not talking jacked bullets here, I still wonder what effect coating would have on pellets? I would suspect the velocity to be a bit higher, but the pellets might not grab the lands as effectively.
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Alan

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rsterne

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2017, 05:04:59 PM »
IMO there is so little area of a pellet in contact with the bore the difference in friction, at least on the first shot, would be tiny, likely unmeasureable.... However, it might build up in the bore, filling the micropores in the rifling, and eventually reduce the friction a bit.... Compared to the friction of a jacketed bullet, a lead bullet that is not oversize is quite small.... and pellet is miniscule by comparison....

The biggest differences I have found with velocity is on bullets sized too big for the bore.... In a recent trial, I tried bullets sized 0.002" and 0.001 under groove diam..... at groove diam.... and 0.001" and 0.002" over groove diam.... in my .257 Monocoque (7" twist, 32" barrel at 3800 psi).... As you increased the diameter you lost about 10 fps per thou, until 0.001" over, but the 0.002" over was the same velocity as the 0.001" over, however it was significantly harder to chamber.... That is because the chamber was 0.001" over, so the larger one was getting sized, resulting in the same velocity as the 0.001" over.... The bullets involved had a center section that was slightly smaller than the lands, so the rifling only engaged on two bands about 1/16" wide.... A while back I tried some bullets in a different rifle (.224 cal) that were 0.003" over, and I had to hammer on the bolt handle with my fist to chamber them.... That was a mistake, as they stuck right there, even with 3000 psi behind them.... I had to drive it out from the muzzle with a brass rod....  :o

Moral is.... if you can't chamber a bullet without pushng too hard, IT'S TOO BIG !!!....

Bob
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EdLena

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2017, 05:25:43 AM »
Personally I'd like to see more semi-auto pcp rifles. FX and Hatsan make them and RWS-Beretta makes one in Co2. There are reliability issues with them I'm told which seems unnecessary in this day and age.
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Alan

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Re: What could possibly be the next big thing in PCPs?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2017, 08:42:43 AM »
While it would be nice, Ed, the force used during reloading has to come from someplace, and that is the air supply. And there is another thing.

I have magazines for all of my PCPs. Unless it is really cold outside, when my fingers don't work, I single load pellets. I find that it helps accuracy, because it teaches you not to get into a hurry.
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Alan

I have an Omega compressor. If you're a fellow Guild member, and you pass through Roswell, NM, I'll fill your portable tank as a courtesy.