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Author Topic: SSG ?  (Read 338 times)

Nvreloader

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SSG ?
« on: October 18, 2017, 02:09:16 PM »
Bob
To quote the info your a posted in the above SSG main Post of yours,

"The idea behind the "Stopping Spring Guide", or SSG is quite simple....
It is to provide a gap between the hammer spring and the hammer, along with preload on that spring,
so that the rebounding hammer cannot recompress the spring when thrown back by the closing valve...."

Question for you,
The above post info for standard setup, meaning close to/or using OEM springs etc?

What would happen, if I wanted to use a very light spring, (ball point spring etc) on the valve stem,
ahead of the normal spring setting place, meaning hammer side of the valve?

Would I need a lighter hammer spring, than OEM, to balance very thing out,
by going to this lighter spring on the valve stem, along with a lighter hammer weight etc.

I am drawing up a SSG for the 79, 22 cal, for use with Co2/Hpa using a 13/3000 psi set to 1100 psi output, all OEM spec's),
this SSG will be centered in the psi cap etc.

My rationalization of this is, (what little I know)> OEM = Heavy hammer/ springs thru out, hammer/valve spring etc,
Lighter valve spring = lighter hammer, valve springs, along with careful tuning etc, for each fuel type,
being Co2 > summer time playing around, > winter time Hpa = hunting time..

Your thoughts/suggestions?

Tia,
Don


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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 02:48:29 PM »
Don, a properly made and installed SSG should use a longer, lighter hammer spring, with roughly 5 lbs. of preload when the spring is fitted to the guide.... It is then installed with a small gap between the end of the guide and the inside of the hammer, so that when uncocked the hammer is rattling around loose in the gun, between the valve stem and guide.... Many guns don't have enough room to fit a longer than stock spring without having the guide stick out the back of the gun when cocked, so a lot of guys use the stock hammer spring, trying to shorten up the installation, and then complain that the SSG is harder to cock than stock, when it should be easier.... It frustrates me that people only do half the job and then complain that it doesn't work properly....

To answer your question, a regulated gun with a very light valve spring has two reasons to use a lighter hammer spring, so yes, you should be able to use a lighter spring than stock in your QB.... Ultimately, the SSG is a tuning adventure, planning it and getting it to work exactly the way you want are often quite different.... In the SSG thread on the GTA there is one I did for a QB with a few details, it might give you an idea of one setup that works....

Stock spring and spacer, setup for "cock on open" and RVA.... and SSG setup, note much lighter spring (actually 2 shorter springs on one guide)....



Bolts for SSG mounting block further forward in tube.... bolt shortened to suit....



Recessed lower screw for breech plug....



Milled recess in trigger group to miss lower SSG mounting screw....



Rear plug to cover guide when cocked, also accepts rear trigger screw.... The tang prevents the gap adjusting bolt from rotating by itself....



There were a lot of changes, but it worked like a charm and was VERY easy to cock with great efficiency....

Bob
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 02:50:11 PM by rsterne »
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Nvreloader

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 07:22:31 PM »
Bob

Thank you for the info.
I forgot to add that this is for the repeater breech/cock on open, 79.

I see you also have a RVA included, for what I want to do,
> both fuel types, would the SSG or RVA be the best all round for my setup?

As they are about the same, in function, correct?

I can only use one of the above, Right?

I would lean towards the best that gives the for testing/shooting etc, with all the variables present.

Tia,
Don
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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 09:46:38 PM »
The RVA was on the original cock-on-open version, the SSG is what I replaced that with.... You should be able to simply increase the gap (and/or reduce the preload) to use CO2 instead of HPA, but I have never done that....

Bob
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Nvreloader

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 06:41:15 PM »
Thanks Bob

On the spring guide threads  and the major adjustment nut threads,
Is it OK to use fine threads, > 1/4 x 40 tpi and 40 tpi for the major adjustment nuts.
I have several sizes of 40 tpi tape/die sets in stock, plus 32 tpi sets, from 1/4" thru 9/16" also.

I am thinking of adjustments for for both fuel types etc, "best adjustablility" for 1 AR.

Tia,
Don

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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2017, 08:09:23 PM »
Yep, fine threads are just fine.... (pun intended)....

Bob
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Nvreloader

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 07:26:28 AM »
LOL
Thanks Bob

With 40 tpi, 1 turn will be approx .025", Good for me on the notes end.  ;)

Tia,
Don
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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 10:39:48 AM »
Some designs of SSG, where you can turn both the gap adjuster and preload adjuster easily, can benefit if the thread on both is the same pitch.... By doing that, you can hold the preload (end of the guide) stationary, and turn the gap adjuster.... and the gap stays constant and you vary only the preload.... I plan to use 28 tpi threads on the gap aduster, with a 1/4-28 thread on the guide, on an SSG on a future project using this SSG system....



Rear tube cap is green, Gap adjuster is red, guide is black.... Preload is adjusted where the black guide threads into the red gap adjuster.... There is a sliding collar (blue) on the guide that allows the hammer (purple) to compress the spring when cocking the gun.... The guide remains stationary, and only the collar slides with the spring and hammer.... Gap is adjusted with thread on the red adjuster into the green cap....

If both threads are the same pitch, and there is a screwdriver slot in the back of the black guide, you can hold that from rotating, and adjust the red nut only.... This results in changing the preload without changing the gap.... Alternately, you can change either one separately.... Something to consider....

Bob

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int3man

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 11:17:42 AM »
Hi Bob,
              Preaching to the choir here.  But if you went with a 1/4-20 on your bolt and 1/2 -20 on your adjustor you could use conventional taps.  Also one rev = .050 thousands adjustment.  Learned that one in R&D.

Michael :- )
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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2017, 11:36:32 AM »
Yep, that would work.... I have several taps in 28 TPI, for 1/2", 9/16" and 5/8" though, so not an issue for me....  ;D

For smaller SSGs you could also use 10-24 and 3/8"-24 as a working pair.... or even 1/4"-20 and 7/16"-20....

Bob
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 11:40:25 AM by rsterne »
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Nvreloader

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2017, 02:47:24 PM »
Thanks Bob

I did not think far enough down the road as far as tpi angle etc,
I also have numerous taps/dies in 28 tpi spec's,  ;)

I thank you for the diagram,  8)
Even thou I am color blind to those colors, except for Blue/Black colors  :-[

I get the total Idea of the parts and how they work, gathering parts now.

Have you tried Vari-Rate recoil springs as used in the 1911 platform, they come in numerous rates?

I am not sure of the diameters O/S, but will measure some to check etc, (my I/S diameter of the 79 hammer is .350").
I have used lots of them for tuning my comp/duty pistols, made by Wolf spring company.

Tia,
Don
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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2017, 03:11:51 PM »
I have never tried progressively wound springs.... don't know what the advantage would be for a hammer spring....

Bob
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Nvreloader

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 07:58:52 AM »
Bob

I have all the parts now for building the SSG.

Here is the info from the stock OEM repeater breech parts,

Main spring length is = 2.350"
O/S dia is = .308"
I/S dia is =.235"
Wire dia = .045"
# of coils = 19

There is a plastic spacer that sits behind the OEM spring guide,
Length is = .995"
Dia is = .620"

OEM spring guide,
Total length = 1.530"
Pin length is = 1.085"
Rod diameter, spring fits over is =.210"

Hammer,
I/S hole diameter is = .355"
Depth of hole is = 1.400"

Hammer stroke is = .455"
Cocked = .890"
Fired = .435

Total valve rod movement is = .145"
When hammer strikes the stop block

Psi tube  cap,
I/S tube dia is = .755"
O/S Dia is .950"

If i figured this out right,
I'll remove the OEM spring guide and spacer, and replace all these parts with a SSG length of 3.350" minimum length.

My SSG spring O/S dia is .315"
I/S dia =.235"
Wire dia = .035"
I/S spring guide length will a min of 4" ,(until I know the correct length needed),
Spring guide rod dia = .218" = 7/32" x 28 tpi,

The 2 pc SSG, (same as your drawing above) PSI cap will be  threaded 1/2" x 28 tpi, at the  main adjustment junction,
with a 7/32 x 28 tpi for the spring adjustment rod I/S.

I wanted to make/use a lighter hammer, (the OEM hammer is hard as hell, file won't touch it), Lol.
So I make a new one from a grade 8 bolt, to lighter spec's than OEM.

The hammer should NOT rest on the valve rod, with any pressure, in the fired position correct?
I should need more adjustment for Co2 and compared to Hpa?

Your thoughts/suggestion on the adjustment starting point, or where I screwed up?

Tia,
Don
ps,
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rsterne

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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 10:29:22 AM »
I'm not about to draw out your installation, so the actual dimensions I will simply assume to be correct.... With the fixed rear guide style of SSG, as in the above drawing, you should start with a small gap (maybe 0.020") between the end of the guide and the hammer, so that the hammer has that amount of movement between the end of the valve stem and the guide.... Ideally, you should have a spring, travel, and installed length that you can increase the preload (outer adjuster in towards the hammer) until the velocity plateaus.... ie more preload will not increase the velocity.... At a minimum, you want to be able to reach your target velocity while you still have a gap between hammer and guide.... Once you find the correct preload, you can decrease the velocity be EITHER reducing the preload or increasing the gap.... The more gap, the more preload you will need for a given velocity.... I usually run about 1/16" gap, you don't want more than 1/8" or the gun may shoot differently uphill and downhill because the hammer will slow down when the muzzle is raised before striking the valve stem....

The SSG in the drawing, with easily adjustable preload, has the advantage of being able to change the velocity without using a large gap.... The original one, like the one in the photos that I built for my QB, must be removed to change the preload (although a slot in the end would allow external adjustment by loosening the locknuts).... Using the same thread pitch on both threads allows you to hold the guide with a screwdriver (slot in the end) while turning the main adjuster.... keeping a constant gap while altering the preload and velocity.... You will probably need a small "brake" on the outer adjuster to prevent it from self-adjusting as you fire the gun.... I use a small setscrew in the housing, pushing on a short Delrin or Teflon rod that sits against the male threads....

Bob
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Re: SSG ?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 12:45:43 PM »
Thanks Bob

No, I didn't want you to draw it out.... ;)
Just wanted to give the spec's, I found etc.

I start making the SSG and leave plenty enough room for all the lengths,
can always shorten up after final fitting.

Would a lighter hammer, be a better choice than stock OEM hammer,
seeing that spring I am starting with is awful wimpy in strength,
I have my doubts about it working right?

Tia,
Don
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"We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker.
It is time to restore the American precept, that each individual is accountable for their actions"
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"Speeds fine, but Accuracy is final"