Author Topic: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?  (Read 1054 times)

Harpoon1

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2018, 02:11:10 PM »
My sense is that Bob tried to offer a real-world type of answer, not based on what seems to be a fictional scenario in which a .177" and .22" pellet have the same BC. As BC is a function of both weight and size/shape, and since two pellets of profoundly different weights and sizes are what's in question, it doesn't seem rational to expect an identical BC for both, hypothetically or otherwise. But then maybe my lack of apprehension of the math involved is the problem? Perhaps you could explain with numbers how you're cooking up identical ballistic coefficients for two pellets, one larger than the other and weighing twice as much? It's no good pretending that they can have the same BC, because they just don't and probably can't.


What good is it to "Ask Bob" if he's only going to answer the question he wants, not the ones we ask?  ;D Just saying........

« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 02:26:29 PM by Harpoon1 »
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Gerard

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2018, 02:19:43 PM »
What good is it asking questions based in fantasy, not fact? 'Who is faster, Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny?' Similar-ish sort of question.
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rsterne

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2018, 02:31:11 PM »
Harpoon1, I calculated the SD for the 8 gr. .177 cal and 16 gr. .22 cal pellets you asked about.... You stated "same SD", but they don't HAVE the same SD.... Had I answered the question you asked, I would have been using flawed data.... Would you prefer I did that?....

I assume from your rather insulting response that you didn't REALLY want me to use those pellet weights at all (guess I'm supposed to read your mind?)…. So, I'll try again, using two pellets of the same SD.... They of course won't be the weights you requested....

Let's take a pellet in .177 cal that weighs 8.4 gr., the JSB Exact.... The SD is (8.4 x 7000 / .177 / .177) = 0.0383.... A .22 cal pellet of the same SD would weigh (0.0383 x .22 x .22 x 7000) = 13.0 gr.... so that is what we need, not "8 gr. and 16 gr.".... JSB don't have an Exact series pellet of that weight, the closest is the RS at 13.4 gr.... but that doesn't matter, because we are now working with a .177 cal pellet and a .22 cal pellet of the same SD....

Since the SD is the same, if the shape is also the same (FF), then the BC would be the same as well.... You specified that the velocity was the same, so the two pellets should act in an identical manner, same trajectory, and same wind drift....

Is THAT the question you wanted answered?.... If not, please try again and I'll do my best (again)....

Bob

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Harpoon1

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2018, 03:02:23 PM »
Harpoon1, I calculated the SD for the 8 gr. .177 cal and 16 gr. .22 cal pellets you asked about.... You stated "same SD", but they don't HAVE the same SD.... Had I answered the question you asked, I would have been using flawed data.... Would you prefer I did that?....

I assume from your rather insulting response that you didn't REALLY want me to use those pellet weights at all (guess I'm supposed to read your mind?)…. So, I'll try again, using two pellets of the same SD.... They of course won't be the weights you requested....

Let's take a pellet in .177 cal that weighs 8.4 gr., the JSB Exact.... The SD is (8.4 x 7000 / .177 / .177) = 0.0383.... A .22 cal pellet of the same SD would weigh (0.0383 x .22 x .22 x 7000) = 13.0 gr.... so that is what we need, not "8 gr. and 16 gr.".... JSB don't have an Exact series pellet of that weight, the closest is the RS at 13.4 gr.... but that doesn't matter, because we are now working with a .177 cal pellet and a .22 cal pellet of the same SD....

Since the SD is the same, if the shape is also the same (FF), then the BC would be the same as well.... You specified that the velocity was the same, so the two pellets should act in an identical manner, same trajectory, and same wind drift....

Is THAT the question you wanted answered?.... If not, please try again and I'll do my best (again)....

Bob

Bob

I sincerely apologise if you found that insulting, that was not my intent.

And yes, that was the question I wanted answered. Thank you.

Respectfully, I did say  "lets assume, hypothetically of course....."

Again, there seems to be this pervasisve belief that, all things being equal, lighter pellets are pushed off course more easily than heavier pellets. I.E. "heavier pellets buck the wind better". Nothing about which pellet has the higher BC/SD, which pellet has a higher velocity. Nope. The implication is, the weight is the reason the pellet "bucks the winds" better.  Its even been implied a couple of times on this thread.

Anyway, you've asnwered my question, at least to my satisfaction. Thank you!





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Harpoon1

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2018, 04:33:06 PM »
My sense is that Bob tried to offer a real-world type of answer, not based on what seems to be a fictional scenario in which a .177" and .22" pellet have the same BC. As BC is a function of both weight and size/shape, and since two pellets of profoundly different weights and sizes are what's in question, it doesn't seem rational to expect an identical BC for both, hypothetically or otherwise. But then maybe my lack of apprehension of the math involved is the problem? Perhaps you could explain with numbers how you're cooking up identical ballistic coefficients for two pellets, one larger than the other and weighing twice as much? It's no good pretending that they can have the same BC, because they just don't and probably can't.


Gerard,

FWIW:

Quote
As BC is a function of both weight and size/shape, and since two pellets of profoundly different weights and sizes are what's in question, it doesn't seem rational to expect an identical BC for both, hypothetically or otherwise.


While the weight and BC are not identical to my hypothetical example, its close enough for "government work". YMMV.

https://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/compare/53+50
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 04:45:27 PM by Harpoon1 »
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Harpoon1

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2018, 04:36:24 PM »
Whats the matter Gerard, cat got your tongue?

What a little "kitty"!  ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 04:39:06 PM by Harpoon1 »
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Gerard

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2018, 04:46:31 PM »
Whats the matter Gerard, cat got your tongue?

What a little "kitty"!  ;D
What? Are you 12? Pardon me for reading the last couple of posts and seeing nothing which merited any input from me. Need clarification? Okay, in brief: Bob kicked your 'theory' around the block, you stubbornly refused to acknowledge this until he'd been more or less forced to reiterate several times over, you were condescending towards him and others, you finally relented a little while still complaining that 'everybody says' some nonsense which I've never seen in a serious discussion of pellet ballistics, and in the end you've found a pair of .177" and .22" pellets which are 'close enough' to satisfy your notion. How is it exactly that any of this amounts to shaming me, if that's your implication, which it seems to be since you're thinly disguising a misogynistic insult directed at me? Here's one back: did you vote for the Trump? Wouldn't surprise me...
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Monkeydad1969

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2018, 04:59:28 PM »
Alright, gents.  Let's keep it cordial.  No need for tempers on this post.

Joe
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rsterne

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Re: Can someone explain how heavier pellets "buck the wind" better?
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2018, 05:36:21 PM »
My section of the Forum, I'll go one further....

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Bob
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