Author Topic: Too hard!  (Read 1558 times)

Alan

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Too hard!
« on: July 24, 2016, 01:19:39 PM »
I'm using JBS Kings in my .25 caliber. FPS ≈880, and the FPE ≈ 44. Primary targets are collared and rock doves. I am having mixed reviews of these pellets, as all too often the pellet passes clear through the bird. Feathers fly, and even some red mist most of the time. But... All too often, the birds fly off only to drop out of the sky a few tens of yards away, and falling on property I don't have permission to be on.

I also shoots some PolyMags (26.0 grains), but past about 25 to 30 yards, they start nutating like a corkscrew! When you do manage to hit said doves with one, even as far out as 60 yards away, they just die, and never fly away!

I'd like to find a pellet which shoots as good as the Kings, but has somewhat softer lead with the hopes they flatten out a bit more than the Kings do. While I could just buy a couple of hundred dollars with of pellets, and waste a lot of time finding an alternative, I thought it best to reach out to those who might have had the same issue, and found a solution.

Any suggestions?


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Alan

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rsterne

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 01:35:47 PM »
The JSBs and the Polymags are both made of very soft lead, IMO identical.... The JSBs are designed to penetrate through the air with the least drag, which means they do the same thing in flesh - penetrate.... The Polymags are made to expand and shed their energy in the quarry, but the shape and features that creates that ability hurts the BC, so they in addition lose more energy on the way there.... IMO the expansion has zero to do with the hardness of the lead (pretty hard to go any softer), and everything to do with the hollowpoint design.... The spiralling you see is a mismatch between the Polymags, the twist rate of your barrel, and the velocity you are driving them at....

Bob
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ncrary

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 01:49:08 PM »
Along those same lines, my Flex 30 seems to have the polymags hitting sideways at 50 yards.  My chrony shows me shooting about 938 fps.  I was told if I slowed them down to about 850 or so they would fly straight.  I haven't had time to try that yet.  I hate to play too much because it is shooting the diablos dead on at 50.
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Newell
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Monkeydad1969

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2016, 09:59:17 PM »
I shoot JSB's and Predators all the time (go figure).  If I hit a dove they pretty much get anchored.  Shot placement still plays a part.  Body shot and most doves do fly off.  Hit the spine, boiler room, head---they don't go anywhere.  AGAIN, the JSB's and Predators are the EXACT same lead.  I have said this before, verified it with Predator (go figure) and Matt has done his testing.  You're a good shot, hit 'em in the head or neck and they won't go anywhere, or at the least not very far.

I have also shot Polymags and seen them shot over a hundred yards and they are hitting their mark.

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Dairyboy

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2016, 10:41:20 PM »
I'm interested to get my kings to shoot from my WARP. It's tuned for the same power as yours so will be interesting to see how they and the polymags do. Wanna talk about hard try the 31gr H&N barracudas and you'll think the kings are soft!
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Alan

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 04:42:30 AM »
They are of the exact same lead/tin mix according to my materials testing friend's business. But the real question is, is there something out there with softer lead (less tin)?

And as for hitting them in the head.... Where I set up my blind to where the doves forage on the ground varies from about 35 yards out to 70 yards. I think I'm a fair shot, but hitting a dove (collared or rock) in the head past say 50 yards, isn't easy even if you're using a weighted bench rest. I must be doing fairly well, as I've harvested about 250 so far this year.
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Alan

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wilsonj1018

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 08:06:08 AM »
jsb kings at 50 fpe in my experience with body shots disembowel and dismember birds... either you need to crank the gun up a bit, or aim a wee bit higher. you arent going to find softer pellets than jsbs. they are almost too soft as is..
Josh
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Alan

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2016, 08:07:25 AM »
Josh, I guess I can't disagree. This morning I shot a pigeon at about 25 yards. I though I had missed it, because no feathers flew. But the time I had reloaded, it had walked about 10 feet, and then just keeled over. The pellet hit the left wing elbow, went through the body, and managed to clip the right wing elbow. The right side exit hole was almost a inch across! How it managed to walk 10 feet, I'll never know!
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Alan

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Dairyboy

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2016, 09:15:12 AM »
Had one similar to that on Monday Alan shot one at about 30 yds threw quartering away through the back out the chest right where you want it flew 50 yds before falling out of the sky. Not sure how they do it but they are tough
  • Outlook, WA
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wilsonj1018

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2016, 10:09:04 AM »
next one is going to say "i'll be back"  8) damn cyborg birds man...
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Truckr6969

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2016, 02:32:17 PM »
My mrod liked the hn hunter hp pellets 27.4 grains but I was pushing them 920ish
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Alan

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2016, 06:26:28 AM »
This is probably not the place for this, but Mr. Stern did have a post a few weeks aback about the "killing" power of a specific pellet. I'm not sure it was that thread, but I have mentioned Elmer Keith's theory on killing power. It all stems back to an article he wrote for Guns & Ammo many years ago. I'll see if I can find a link to it, because if nothing else, it might get all of us thinking.
  • Roswell, New Mexico
Alan

I have an Omega compressor. If you're a fellow Guild member, and you pass through Roswell, NM, I'll fill your portable tank as a courtesy.

Alan

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2016, 10:09:47 AM »
I didn't find what I was looking for, but I found this: http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm

It is actually a better read than the one I was looking for. While not directly applicable to air-powered pellet guns, it is applicable to those which fire bullets.

Here is another good read: http://www.chuckhawks.com/alternative_practice.htm

Any comments Mr. Sterne?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:11:26 AM by Alan »
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Alan

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rsterne

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Re: Too hard!
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2016, 11:08:45 AM »
I don't think there is any "magic formula" to determine the "killing power" of a bullet.... Some of the classics, when taken to the extreme, lead to ridiculous predictions.... eg. a baseball thrown by a major league pitcher should knock down an Elephant.... You need a few things to make a bullet lethal.... Call it the three "Ps" if you like.... Without all three, your risk of wounding an animal instead of dispatching it quickly increases drastically....

1. Placement - you have to hit a vital spot, ideally either the brain or heart....
2. Penetration - your bullet has to penetrate deeply enough to disable the vital organ you are shooting at....
3. Power - given the above two requirements being met, the more energy (damage) you can deliver to that vital organ, the quicker death should occur....

Placement means accuracy, both on behalf of the shooter and weapon.... and often leads to the 4th "P".... Patience....
Penetration is a combination of Velocity and Sectional Density, and of course bullet type and construction.... HollowPoints penetrate less....
Power is a combination of Velocity and Weight, and again bullet type and construction.... HPs deliver more energy for a given penetration....

If you simplify Penetration and Power to their most basic levels.... bigger and faster is better....

Bob
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